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Author Topic:   Christianity is Morally Bankrupt
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 436 of 652 (867719)
12-02-2019 7:39 AM
Reply to: Message 434 by jar
12-02-2019 7:14 AM


Re: The Romans Road--Not A Carny Sideshow
jar writes:
But I have never claimed that anybody, anybody at all, gets a free pass. It is the Apologists and Conmen who market the idea that there is a free pass.
All that they market is that One must accept God in communion. Initially, we accepted the knowledge of good and evil. That led to us determining for ourselves what good was and what evil was. We became as gods, knowing both. The apologists try and sell the belief that we actually know neither ultimate good nor ultimate evil and are incapable of learning. They market the solution. What seems to bug you is the idea that we get saved rather than having to figure it out for ourselves.
What bugs me about your position as I understand it is that folks simply need to help each other to the best of our ability and that no other change in attitude, belief, or behavior is necessary. God will simply let everyone into the party who at least tried to avoid evil (as they understood it) seek to do good(as they understood it) and love all people the best that we can in an unselfish manner.
You put the whole responsibility of the transformation on us. Romans 12:2 clearly says not to conform, be transformed rather than trying to do your best in order to transform yourself through works.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 434 by jar, posted 12-02-2019 7:14 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 437 by jar, posted 12-02-2019 8:15 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 441 by ringo, posted 12-02-2019 11:07 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 446 of 652 (867759)
12-02-2019 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 440 by ringo
12-02-2019 11:00 AM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
The debate/discussion continues...
Phat writes:
I also think it incredulous that jar and ringo think a good God would let everyone be the way they are now.
ringo writes:
You've never been able to explain why He wouldn't. And you've also never been able to explain why Christians are no different from non-Christians. It seems pretty obvious that He is letting both you and me "be the way we are now".
CS Lewis touches on this change in humanity briefly in his book, Mere Christianity , specifically in the section 11: The New Men.
quote:
In the last chapter I compared Christ's work of making New Men to the process of turning a horse into a winged creature. I used that extreme example in order to emphasize the point that it is not a mere improvement but Transformation.(...)
people often wonder "What is the next step? When is the thing beyond man going to appear?" Imaginative writers try sometimes to picture this next stepthe "Superman" as they call him; but they usually only succeed in picturing someone a good deal nastier than man as we know him and then try to make up for that by sticking on extra legs or arms. But supposing the next step was to be something even more different from the earlier steps than they ever dreamed of? (...)
Now it seems to me that most of the popular guesses at the Next Step are making just the same sort of mistake. People see (or at any rate they think they see) men developing greater brains and getting greater mastery over nature. (...)I cannot help thinking that the Next Step will be really new; it will go off in a direction you could never have dreamed of. It would hardly be worth calling a New Step unless it did. I should expect not merely difference but a new kind of difference. I should expect not merely change but a new method of producing the change... I should expect the next stage in Evolution not to be a stage in Evolution at all: should expect the Evolution itself as a method of producing change, will be superseded. And finally, I should not be surprised if, when the thing happened, very few people noticed that it was happening.
The Christian view is precisely that the Next Step has already appeared. And it is really new. It is not a change from brainy men to brainier men: it is a change that goes off in a totally different directiona change from being creatures of God to being sons of God. The first instance appeared in Palestine two thousand years ago. In a sense, the change is not "Evolution" at all, because it is not something arising out of the natural process of events but something coming into nature from outside...
To become new men means losing what we now call "ourselves." Out of ourselves, into Christ, we must go. His will is to become ours and we are to think His thoughts, to "have the mind of Christ" as the Bible says. And if Christ is one, and if He is thus to be "in" us all, shall we not be exactly the same? It certainly sounds like it, but in fact, it is not so.
The more we get what we now call "ourselves" out of the way and let Him take us over, the more truly ourselves we become. There is so much of Him that millions and millions of "little Christs," all different, will still be too few to express Him fully. He made them all. He inventedas an author invents characters in a novelall the different men that you and I were intended to be. In that sense, our real selves are all waiting for us in Him. It is no good trying to "be myself" without Him.
The more I resist Him and try to live on my own, the more I become dominated by my own heredity and upbringing and surroundings and natural desires. In fact what I so proudly call "Myself" becomes merely the meeting place for trains of events which I never started and which I cannot stop. What I call "My wishes" become merely the desires thrown up by my physical organism or pumped into me by other men's thoughts or even suggested to me by devils. Eggs and alcohol and a good night's sleep will be the real origins of what I flatter myself by regarding as my own highly personal and discriminating decision to make love to the girl opposite to me in the railway carriage. Propaganda will be the real origin of what I regard as my own personal political ideals, I am not, in my natural state, nearly so much of a person as I like to believe: most of what I call "me" can be very easily explained. It is when I turn to Christ when I give myself up to His Personality, that I first begin to have a real personality of my own. At the beginning, I said there were Personalities in God. I will go further now. There are no real personalities anywhere else.
Until you have given up your self to Him you will not have a real self. Sameness is to be found most among the most "natural" men, not among those who surrender to Christ. How monotonously alike all the great tyrants and conquerors have been: how gloriously different are the saints.
But there must be a real giving up of the self. You must throw it away "blindly" so to speak. Christ will indeed give you a real personality: but you must not go to Him for the sake of that. As long as your own personality is what you are bothering about you are not going to Him at all. The very first step is to try to forget about the self altogether. Your real, new self (which is Christ's and also yours, and yours just because it is His) will not come as long as you are looking for it. It will come when you are looking for Him. Does that sound strange?
Give up your self, and you will find your real self. Lose your life and you will save it. Submit to death, death of your ambitions and favorite wishes every day and death of your whole body in the end: submit with every fiber of your being, and you will find eternal life. Keep back nothing. Nothing that you have not given away will ever be really yours. Nothing in you that has not died will ever be raised from the dead. Look for yourself, and you will find in the long run only hatred, loneliness, despair, rage, ruin, and decay. But look for Christ and you will find Him, and with Him everything else thrown in.
Lewis explains the transformation better than I could.
ringo writes:
And you've also never been able to explain why Christians are no different from non-Christians.
The difference is subtle. We are works in progress. Some things became clear from Day One, while other things take time to let go of. And I might add that unlike jars assertion, Christians are not simply Christians because they say they are. They are Christians because Christ came into them and they died to self. It is a slow process, for we don't all die at once. Many parts of our personality are hard to let go of.[/qs] God does not force us to change. Lewis also explains this.
Mere Christianity writes:
Your real, new self (which is Christ's and also yours, and yours just because it is His) will not come as long as you are looking for it. It will come when you are looking for Him.
Thus, while jar tells us to throw God away and throw Christ away, Lewis exhorts us to throw Self away.
Yes, ringo---God does not simply accept us as we are in current attitude. No drunks allowed at this gathering.
Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 440 by ringo, posted 12-02-2019 11:00 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 454 by ringo, posted 12-03-2019 10:55 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 447 of 652 (867772)
12-02-2019 9:01 PM
Reply to: Message 445 by Tangle
12-02-2019 5:48 PM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
Tangle writes:
Please, please, ask yourself why god needs to run a cruel test that only a few can pass in order to get them into a place he could put them directly into without needing to torture and kill everything he's created.
You expect God to make conditions pleasant for you. He expects you to be transformed enough to make conditions pleasant for others. And there is no evidence that He is responsible for our human suffering. You just have taken the position that if God is all-powerful, we need not suffer. Did it ever occur to you that suffering is a part of the plan?
Why?
Because if you premake someone's environment and character for them, they become like zombies. The purpose is for us to accomplish much despite suffering. The point is that just as muscles grow larger after being broken down and torn, so do humans.
And I might add that you have no clue as to God's actual character until you are in communion. You claim that some are punished for not being able to hear the still small voice...or the indwelling presence. Might I suggest that it is your own mind's habit of rejecting non- evidenced events that sets a block on this process initially? But I don't believe He will punish you simply for being slow to comprehend unevidenced spirituality. The God I believe in is not simply limited to descriptions in the book.
Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 445 by Tangle, posted 12-02-2019 5:48 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 448 by Tangle, posted 12-03-2019 3:01 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 449 of 652 (867783)
12-03-2019 3:32 AM
Reply to: Message 448 by Tangle
12-03-2019 3:01 AM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
Tngle,to GDR writes:
You'll now go away and forget about it and pretend that it doesn't matter that your god has removed his voice from millions of people.
Did he, though?
Tangle writes:
I'm an atheist Phat, remember? God doesn't exist, I expect nothing of him.
Thus you would not expect a still small voice even if one existed. Yet you charge Him hypothetically denying the voice to you. Get your argument straight. Either He doesn't exist--in which case, there is no still small voice...or you refuse to hear such a voice because you are an atheist. You can't dictate that He must force It upon you. That's not a fair argument. You've been reading too much Richard Dawkins. You believe that crap that he taught about the cruel God. You know what I am talking about.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 448 by Tangle, posted 12-03-2019 3:01 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 450 by Tangle, posted 12-03-2019 6:09 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 451 of 652 (867791)
12-03-2019 9:58 AM
Reply to: Message 450 by Tangle
12-03-2019 6:09 AM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
You are failing at trying to show me anything. I know my God. And my God does not torture anyone or anything. Heck, he even may give Satan an opportunity to repent at some point. You can't limit my God to the character in a book and you can't indict Him. You stop spinning, Tangle. We are done here. The audacity of atheists trying to define and judge a character in a book! You won't trap a believer there. We simply see God as larger than what traps the atheists, skeptics, and self-proclaimed Bible teachers (who think the Holy Spirit was a mere political creation) set to encourage doubt. And for clarity, let me remind the audience once more what CS Lewis said in Mere Christianity: (This is for anyone who believes we should throw God away)
CSLewis writes:
Nothing that you have not given away will ever be really yours. Nothing in you that has not died will ever be raised from the dead. Look for yourself, and you will find in the long run only hatred, loneliness, despair, rage, ruin, and decay. But look for Christ and you will find Him, and with Him, everything else thrown in.
Lewis understood literature and fantasy. He also was a believer who stuck to his beliefs. He didn't die an alcoholic like Napoleon Hill, a carny sideshow that failed. He is but one example of many Christians who found out that God was real and was larger than the book itself. The rest of you were too busy asking questions and trying to quantify, measure, and verify scientifically what you felt. You ended up throwing away the present and keeping the box.
Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 450 by Tangle, posted 12-03-2019 6:09 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 452 by Tangle, posted 12-03-2019 10:30 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 455 by PaulK, posted 12-03-2019 11:01 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 465 of 652 (867811)
12-03-2019 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 460 by Tangle
12-03-2019 1:22 PM


Untangling Why
To sum up Tangles assertion:
tangle writes:
All you're doing is saying that this is the way God made it is so... but what I'm asking you is why your god made it the way it is.(...)He's created an experiment that results in the suffering and death of all of his creation.
Yes. death is a part of this life. We see it every Fall and Spring. Are you asking why God allows death? Or are you asking why suffering is also part of the process?
It's totally unnecessary and it's evil. How can that god match up to the loving god you believe in?
Is it specifically evil in that only some get to go(or to evolve to that level)? Or is it evil that they suffer during the process.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 460 by Tangle, posted 12-03-2019 1:22 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 469 by Tangle, posted 12-03-2019 4:15 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 466 of 652 (867813)
12-03-2019 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 464 by Faith
12-03-2019 2:42 PM


Re: The purpose of it all
Tangles argument would make sense if God foreknew who would live eternally and who would experience the final spiritual death. One must admit that such a proposition is serious. If I believed that I was saved and was heading for a cushy retirement in Heaven, would I thus try as hard to get everyone on the planet to join me there or would I be worse than God and pick and choose whom I wanted to go with me? And what would I do with the ones who dug in their heels and rejected God? Drag them along anyway, rendering their free will as an illusion?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 464 by Faith, posted 12-03-2019 2:42 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 467 by Faith, posted 12-03-2019 3:13 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 471 of 652 (867883)
12-04-2019 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 469 by Tangle
12-03-2019 4:15 PM


Two Descriptions of God: In and Out of the matrix
tangle writes:
The entire experiment is evil.
Which experiment? I'm now confused. You have gone on record as an atheist. You claim that Christians make up whatever story they choose to believe. I might concede that point, but let's continue.
Apparently you have judged--for yourself--the way that the "god character" actually is based entirely on a book written--we can agree--by humans. The jury is out regarding the inspiration for the book--at least on my end. So now what?
You are asking me the following:
Tangle writes:
You're in the Matrix and accept the regime as real and necessary. I'm looking at the machine from outside and see the evil. You can't step out of the system and ask the question why it's set up the way it is.
Correct. I suppose that I could hypothetically step outside the system and ask why this God of human-created literature appears to you as clearly evil and why He appears to Faith, GDR, and myself as a fair God. My only response to that is, at least in my case, God is good.
Tangle writes:
I'll try again. Forget the way it is. Pretend you're god and nothing exists. Now explain to me why you set up the experiment the evil way it's set up and why it's necessary at all?
As long as we are pretending, you are a bit like Job (except not yet as wiped out) and I am the God character. Shall we use the Job analogy or do you want me to act as if I am a modern-day God and have not yet created anything? So how am I supposed to explain myself to anybody? You...puny human that you are,(as am I) are shaking our fist at this God and concluding that He is evil...all with no knowledge of anything beyond what the old book says. Is that about right?
If so, I am prepared to imagine God as more than what is described in the book. GDR does the same thing. I think its human nature for believers to elaborate a bit on how God thinks. You would claim that the description is limited to the book. I would argue that people had descriptions long before they were written down.
So how do you want me to answer the second part of your question, keeping in mind that I'm not God and neither are you? You seem to be rallying the critical thinking part of our collective minds to reject the book, the religion, and any created or imagined characters. But you are asking someone who is in the matrix, remember?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 469 by Tangle, posted 12-03-2019 4:15 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 477 by Tangle, posted 12-04-2019 4:58 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 472 of 652 (867893)
12-04-2019 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 458 by ringo
12-03-2019 12:24 PM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
ringo writes:
There's no reason to think the laws of nature require a "lawmaker".
So, in the beginning, there were chemicals. Is that a proper summation of your position? It appears that if we can talk about emergent properties of matter than at best we can say that nature has laws based on emergent properties of itself. Thuus, you would likely agree with old Stephen Hawking in that
quote:
Because there is a law such as gravity, the universe can and will create itself from nothing. Spontaneous creation is the reason there is something rather than nothing, why the universe exists, why we exist. It is not necessary to invoke God to light the blue touch paper and set the universe going.
As brilliant as he was, his mind could not understand Lou Gehrig's disease. What makes you think he understands the universe well enough to bump God off of the podium?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 458 by ringo, posted 12-03-2019 12:24 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 473 by ringo, posted 12-04-2019 4:04 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 474 of 652 (867897)
12-04-2019 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 473 by ringo
12-04-2019 4:04 PM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
I believe that God exists. I believe that I have enough confidence to say this to myself. Whether or not you once believed or not, only you can say. It seems to me that you let critical thinking and evidence talk you out of your belief. I blame the militant atheist writers. They have an agenda to eliminate God-centered thinking.
My understanding supports my belief. Your understanding eliminated yours.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 473 by ringo, posted 12-04-2019 4:04 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 475 by jar, posted 12-04-2019 4:46 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 476 by ringo, posted 12-04-2019 4:57 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 484 of 652 (867930)
12-05-2019 4:56 AM
Reply to: Message 483 by Tangle
12-05-2019 4:34 AM


Re: The purpose of it all
This is indeed funny. You seem to know that our particular God is cruel. et you said you are not referring to the book. How then do you know God is cruel? We certainly don't. And we can't just give you answers on what His opinion of your question is. I can pray that He reveals something to me, but I cant make up an answer on His behalf.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 483 by Tangle, posted 12-05-2019 4:34 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 485 by Tangle, posted 12-05-2019 5:19 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 489 by ringo, posted 12-05-2019 10:58 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 493 of 652 (867979)
12-05-2019 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 492 by Tangle
12-05-2019 1:54 PM


The Story Of Job In Perspective
So apparently Tangle keeps bugging me to answer the bloody question that he asks, namely "why does God appear evil in scripture, and why did God have to do things the way that He did? The argument is that it appears to be an evil act in creating people and then trashing them and damning them simply to hone a select and exclusive subgroup who then goes on to populate Heaven and achieve greater glory.
First of all, I dont think that my God would do such a thing, and am taking this as an opportunity to once again study the oldest book in the Bible, the story of Job.
Job 1:1-2 writes:
There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was blameless and upright, and one who feared God and shunned evil. NKJV
Note that Job was of good character, a wealthy man, and most notably one who feared God. Thus he most definitely wouldn't be making fun of God or second-guessing God or challenging God on a normal basis. Nor would he do as many do these days and simply ignore God. He accepted that the Creator of all seen and unseen was exactly that--not some character of literature, a plot device, or a mere tale of the mythos. This man actually talked with God through prayer on a daily basis. At least that's what I get out of this story.
Job 1:4-5 writes:
And his sons would go and feast in their houses, each on his appointed day, and would send and invite their three sisters to eat and drink with them. 5 So it was, when the days of feasting had run their course, that Job would send and sanctify them, and he would rise early in the morning and offer burnt offerings according to the number of them all. Job said, "It may be that my sons have sinned and cursed God in their hearts." Thus Job did regularly.
Wyhat I get is that his sons were not quite as pious as he was. Maybe it was that they were simply younger and more full of life than of god. What does anyone else think? I see a father who not only prays for himself but for his family---letting them do their own thing essentially.
1:6-1:13 has satan introduced. God gives Satan the power to mess with Job. Often, when critics accuse god of causing evil, I remind them that satan is in play as well, and in fact causes nothing but evil...either through destruction or enticement. Of course, critics could still blame God for allowing satan to exist, but that's another argument. It does seem to get God off the hook directly for causing or allowing evil, but not practically. Why would God allow satan to be part of a cruel experiment fostered on humanity---those whom God so loved? (John 3:16)
So then Job loses his property and his children. Who wouldn't be mad at that? One could simply say that it was fate and that life was unfair, but then whom could one blame for their misfortune? Fate is impersonal and nonliving. This particular man was a man who personified good and evil. Yet he apparently knew enough that to curse would bring the power of evil stronger.
Job 1:21-22 writes:
"Naked I came from my mother's womb,
And naked shall I return there.
The LORD gave, and the LORD has taken away;
Blessed be the name of the LORD."
In all this Job did not sin nor charge God with wrong.
I suppose unbelievers would simply shrug and say "hey, sh*t happens. Life is unfair."
I recently had eye surgery and now am blind in one eye. I have to see the doctor again on Tuesday. I hope that it is just a cateract, but if it indeed does mean that I am blind, I certainly wont just shrug and say that life is unfair. I will be angry and focused. If anyone of you skeptics had the same thing happen to you, what would be the focus of your anger?
Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 492 by Tangle, posted 12-05-2019 1:54 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 496 by Tangle, posted 12-05-2019 2:47 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 499 of 652 (867989)
12-05-2019 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 495 by Percy
12-05-2019 2:46 PM


Re: Mainstream Christian Belief
Why doesn't a loving God make his "voice" available to all?
What form would this voice take? Is there more than one form?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 495 by Percy, posted 12-05-2019 2:46 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 512 of 652 (868048)
12-06-2019 3:35 PM
Reply to: Message 511 by Taq
12-06-2019 2:38 PM


Re: The purpose of it all
Percy writes:
Why doesn't a loving God make his "voice" available to all?
According to Romans 1, He does. For any believer, I would assume that He is istening. Whether or not he responds is another matter. He certainly does not have to respond. Sometimes no answer is the answer. For that moment, anyway.
I have been watching this side conversation between Faith and Taq with growing interest. Taq is pressing for an answer from Faith, and I can empathize with her position. She searches in her memory banks for a proper theological answer, as do I, but ends up making up an answer as I also will end up doing, because quite frankly at the end of the day belief is still a belief. If I look back, Taqs basic question was similar to Tangles basic question: Why did it (the story) have to have a God who created evil initially and thus why did humans have to suffer and die and get tortured and experience extreme pain in life all for the eventual purpose of *some* ending up in Heaven, having endured this whole trial by fire scenario. (Does that sound right, Taq?) So the argument goes, an all-powerful and loving God *could* have hypothetically skipped that whole developmental step with the human creation and simply created more free-willed beings to populate Heaven. (or Eden, take your pick)
It actually is a fascinating question and not one easily answered. But I think there are a few clues in the literature (which is, after all, the only source of our knowledge of historical belief regarding the God of popular Christian apologetics (the One who has a Son, Jesus Christ, and believers by extension)
  • First, we read that there was a war in Heaven. The idea that a war could even begin in a place such as Heaven shows clearly that free will was involved.
    Wikipedia-War In Heaven
    The Wiki article seems well written and quite fair and balanced. So to answer Taqs question, yes there will be free will in Heaven. Just as the Angelic Beings were free to challenge God, so shall anyone else be free to challenge God. Only the proud ones try, however, and we saw what happened in that first war.
    It seems to me if I accept the plausibility of the stories, that the human-animal was created free and innocent, was initially exposed to the rebels, disobeyed God, became aware of what true free will is (as an ongoing evolutionary trait)
    and is now in the phase of denying obedience to any supreme being or evil entity, preferring to develop among ourselves and grow to our best potential or die trying.
    And Taq, you know jar and ringos basic position, yes? That God told our ancestors that if we disobeyed we would die while the cunning serpent told us that we would do fine with our new knowledge of good and evil. Which they claim is the truth. So the answer is_______________________________ from this day forward?
    A) Choose to critically examine any and all beliefs and strive to be a good human.
    B) Believe that Jesus is good and eternal, confess your own sin and imperfection to Him, and ask Him to fill you with His communion presence.
    C) Hope that no talking snakes appear in your future.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
    "~Thugpreacha
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
    ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 511 by Taq, posted 12-06-2019 2:38 PM Taq has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 513 by Taq, posted 12-06-2019 4:08 PM Phat has replied
     Message 522 by ringo, posted 12-07-2019 10:54 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 514 of 652 (868069)
    12-06-2019 5:07 PM
    Reply to: Message 513 by Taq
    12-06-2019 4:08 PM


    Re: The purpose of it all
    Taq writes:
    Why even have the two trees in Eden, to begin with, or create Adam and Eve with the ability to disobey?
    Let's think critically.
    The book was either totally written and imagined by humans struggling to understand the concept of God.
    or
    It was divinely inspired and the humans wrote down the spark to their limited intelligence at that time, in line with their culture.
    If the former, then the story, explains itself as a human-inspired myth.
    If the latter, we are then faced with questioning why it was in the "Divine Book" to begin with. Perhaps two trees symbolize a metaphor between eternal life and eternal death. If so, knowledge without communion is death (eventual or otherwise) ringo always dislikes the apologetic reference to spiritual death, which I commonly find while browsing. All we know is that tree#2(the second pick) was off-limits to those who picked tree #`1. Perhaps Tree#1 would hypothetically be off-limits had Eve chosen Tree#2. Christian believers tend to take these things seriously literal, so just by interpreting possibilities I am being a rebel. But that's just me,.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
    "~Thugpreacha
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
    ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 513 by Taq, posted 12-06-2019 4:08 PM Taq has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 515 by Tangle, posted 12-07-2019 4:40 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 523 by ringo, posted 12-07-2019 11:02 AM Phat has replied

      
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