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Author Topic:   Police Shootings
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2284
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 361 of 670 (867821)
12-03-2019 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 360 by Percy
12-03-2019 3:41 PM


Re: Unarmed Police Does Work
What if his intent was that it go off only in the event of his death?
what if he intended it to go off when a pink unicorn ran past? you can what if this to death. They might be popular on movies/TV but I've never heard of a real bomb being linked to someone's heartbeat.
If he had a dead man's switch he could have released it at any time, if he had a command detonator he could have set it off at any time, it could be on a timer, it could be rigged with a cell phone and detonated remotely. The police had to act to eliminate the threat, kill the guy to prevent him from setting off the bomb, take the chance that since he has yet to trigger a dead man's switch that he doesn't have one. let the bomb squad deal with any other detonator scenarios.

It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 360 by Percy, posted 12-03-2019 3:41 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 362 by Percy, posted 12-03-2019 5:26 PM DrJones* has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 362 of 670 (867829)
12-03-2019 5:26 PM
Reply to: Message 361 by DrJones*
12-03-2019 3:59 PM


Re: Unarmed Police Does Work
DrJones* writes:
What if his intent was that it go off only in the event of his death?
what if he intended it to go off when a pink unicorn ran past? you can what if this to death. They might be popular on movies/TV but I've never heard of a real bomb being linked to someone's heartbeat.
Huh? No, no, I'm referring to the dead man's switch PaulK and I were talking about.
If he had a dead man's switch he could have released it at any time,...
True, including when he died. Or perhaps he hoped to break free, run into a crowd, and detonate there.
...if he had a command detonator he could have set it off at any time, it could be on a timer, it could be rigged with a cell phone and detonated remotely.
All true.
The police had to act to eliminate the threat, kill the guy to prevent him from setting off the bomb, take the chance that since he has yet to trigger a dead man's switch that he doesn't have one.
Yes, they were taking a risk. That's my point.
Let the bomb squad deal with any other detonator scenarios.
How about letting the bomb squad deal with all bomb detonator scenarios?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 361 by DrJones*, posted 12-03-2019 3:59 PM DrJones* has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 363 by DrJones*, posted 12-03-2019 6:04 PM Percy has replied

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2284
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 363 of 670 (867831)
12-03-2019 6:04 PM
Reply to: Message 362 by Percy
12-03-2019 5:26 PM


Re: Unarmed Police Does Work
Or perhaps he hoped to break free, run into a crowd, and detonate there.
right, which is why you kill him as soon as you have a chance.
Yes, they were taking a risk. That's my point.
everything was risky. If they didn't shoot him they risked the above scenario
How about letting the bomb squad deal with all bomb detonator scenarios?
and you expect the bad guy to just stand by and wait for them to arrive and work on him?

It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 362 by Percy, posted 12-03-2019 5:26 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 364 by Percy, posted 12-03-2019 8:25 PM DrJones* has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 364 of 670 (867836)
12-03-2019 8:25 PM
Reply to: Message 363 by DrJones*
12-03-2019 6:04 PM


Re: Unarmed Police Does Work
DrJones* writes:
Or perhaps he hoped to break free, run into a crowd, and detonate there.
right, which is why you kill him as soon as you have a chance.
And other scenarios argue against killing him. What to do, what to do.
Yes, they were taking a risk. That's my point.
everything was risky. If they didn't shoot him they risked the above scenario
And if they do shoot him they risk other scenarios.
How about letting the bomb squad deal with all bomb detonator scenarios?
and you expect the bad guy to just stand by and wait for them to arrive and work on him?
It was argued upthread that the fact the suicide vest hadn't already been detonated argued against a dead man's switch. But that same fact, that the suicide vest hadn't already been detonated, also argues against a detonation switch. What kind of suicide vest has no switch? A fake one.
The video shows he was already being held on the ground by someone who was pulled off him so a police officer could kill him. Probably the vest was fake, but the possibility it was real means that calling the bomb squad was the best option. Continuing to hold him on the ground until the bomb squad arrived is all that needed to be done. There was no need to kill him.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 363 by DrJones*, posted 12-03-2019 6:04 PM DrJones* has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 365 by DrJones*, posted 12-03-2019 9:54 PM Percy has replied
 Message 367 by PaulK, posted 12-04-2019 12:20 AM Percy has replied

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2284
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 365 of 670 (867841)
12-03-2019 9:54 PM
Reply to: Message 364 by Percy
12-03-2019 8:25 PM


Re: Unarmed Police Does Work
There was no need to kill him.
they prevented him from breaking free and running off into a crowd to detonate his bomb

This message is a reply to:
 Message 364 by Percy, posted 12-03-2019 8:25 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 374 by Percy, posted 12-04-2019 8:06 PM DrJones* has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 366 of 670 (867842)
12-03-2019 11:02 PM
Reply to: Message 355 by Percy
12-02-2019 9:41 PM


Re: Unarmed Police Does Work
You have repeatedly stated that you find it acceptable and preferable to have a highly trained police unit tasked with dealing with instances of this magnitude while having the majority of the police force disarmed. Now you literally get exactly what you asked for but still have a problem with it. Color me shocked.
How about clearing the area and calling the bomb squad?
LOL, when??? Who had time to do any of that between random and incredibly brave civilians diving on a knife-wielding man who, only during the tussle, was it revealed had what appeared to be a suicide vest? The police had just arrived at that point. I suppose the man would have just sat quietly as police shut down the bridge awaiting the bomb squad's arrival.
The police couldn't know at that point in time that any of the people stabbed had died or would die of their wounds, so they didn't know if he was "an actual murderer."
You're right, they should have taken him before the judge before using force because he hadn't been convicted of anything yet. There's a reason why the call it "probable cause".... because its probable.
The news reports I've read said that the knife attacks occurred in Fishmonger's Hall and that the suspect was pursued out onto the bridge where he was disarmed by bystanders before police arrived. In any case, he was not actively trying to kill people when police murdered him.
So, the guy butchering people wasn't a murderer... the police are the murderers. This guy did everything in his power to manufacture the outcome he received -- an outcome that by all accounts was justifiable given the circumstances that presented themselves.
We agree on that, but not about whether this had reached that point.
So lets flip it and say the suicide vest was real, he detonates it, killing all of the officers and the civilians on the bridge. Then the police are criticized for not taking decisive and appropriate action by stopping the threat when time permitted. Do you see how this is so often a zero sum game for cops? No matter what you do you're scum pig.
Most people probably think the police were justified in killing the suspect because he had already murdered two people and had already served time in prison for jihadist activity, but at the time he was killed police did not know that.
What do you mean they didn't know that? Who and what do you think they were responding to? Lets be clear... they didn't kill on the spot because he was suspected of murder. He was killed because they saw a suicide vest on.
If after it was all over it was discovered that the people stabbed had only superficial wounds would people still think the murder of the suspect justified? And if it were further found the suspect was a schizophrenic rather than a jihadist what would people think then about the murder?
That it would still be justified. You don't kill someone because they have killed, you kill someone because they have the opportunity and means to kill again.
I'd also like to know more about the suspect's fake suicide vest. Does a suicide vest have some distinctive appearance? I could only find this image of the suspect that had a caption saying it showed the suicide vest
This isn't the first time someone intentionally designed a vest to look like an operational suicide vest. Doesn't matter. He wanted the police to believe it was a legitimate suicide vest and now he got the outcome he was looking for. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 355 by Percy, posted 12-02-2019 9:41 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 375 by Percy, posted 12-04-2019 8:09 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 367 of 670 (867844)
12-04-2019 12:20 AM
Reply to: Message 364 by Percy
12-03-2019 8:25 PM


Re: Unarmed Police Does Work
quote:
It was argued upthread that the fact the suicide vest hadn't already been detonated argued against a dead man's switch. But that same fact, that the suicide vest hadn't already been detonated, also argues against a detonation switch. What kind of suicide vest has no switch? A fake one.
That’s a distortion of the argument. The argument relied on the fact that a dead man switch should be easier to operate than a manual detonator. Given the situation it is entirely possible that he could not have triggered a manual detonator.
quote:
The video shows he was already being held on the ground by someone who was pulled off him so a police officer could kill him. Probably the vest was fake, but the possibility it was real means that calling the bomb squad was the best option. Continuing to hold him on the ground until the bomb squad arrived is all that needed to be done. There was no need to kill him.
The suicide vest wasn’t noticed until they were pulling people off him. By that time it was too late to maintain the pile-on.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 364 by Percy, posted 12-03-2019 8:25 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 370 by Percy, posted 12-04-2019 12:25 PM PaulK has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 368 of 670 (867853)
12-04-2019 9:37 AM
Reply to: Message 359 by PaulK
12-03-2019 3:22 PM


Re: Unarmed Police Does Work
PaulK writes:
quote:
I wasn't having it both ways. I never called it a "panicked response." Earlier I said that it reflected badly on British police training regarding bombs and guns, and later I called it an execution
How else could there be a significant risk of hitting the vest?
Oh, geez, what was I thinking. When people don't panic nothing ever goes wrong. Doh!
quote:
I'm still wondering about the suicide vest. Is a suicide vest in the shape of an actual vest in that it covers the trunk of the body where a "kill shot" would be aimed?
It does cover the body, but in an execution style shooting the target would be the head. And that’s what it looked like to me in the video.
So we agree that it was an execution?
quote:
I don't understand the source of your certainty about "minimal risk of detonating the vest."
A head shot isn’t at all likely to hit the vest.
Okay, I understand your reasoning now.
quote:
I'm probably not following you. Why do you keep mentioning a detonator? Did you read somewhere that the suspect reached for a detonator? Where, because I couldn't find a mention of that at Google News?
Because that would be the usual way of setting it off. And for this particular point it doesn’t matter. If he was holding a dead man switch all he had to do was let go. If he had to reach for the detonator it would take more time.
This comes back to a point I made upthread. What kind of suicide vest has no dead man's switch and no detonator switch? A fake one.
quote:
Yes, of course, but I must be missing your point because this sentence seems as if you intended it to support your point about reaching for a detonator. What were you actually trying to say?
No, it’s to support the point that if he was using a dead man switch the vest would have already gone off.
Not if he was still holding the button/switch/whatever in the "activate" position.
He had a suicide vest, he was down and surrounded by armed police. He’d been stabbing people. If he had a real suicide vest what else was he going to do ?
We can only speculate and enumerate the possibilities of what the suspect was thinking.
A head shot is not likely to detonate the vest. The police shooter had aimed and was using a carbine, not a handgun
I'd previously heard that police aim for the center of mass. Looking this up I found nothing about aiming for the head, but I of course accept that a trained marksman can hit the head from seven feet or so.
If he had a dead man’s switch he had the opportunity to detonate the vest, and why wouldn’t he?
There are enumerable reasons why he wouldn't detonate the vest, and the type of switch (detonator switch versus dead man's switch) makes no difference to this aspect of the discussion. Maybe he thought a better opportunity might present itself. Maybe he decided he wanted to live. Maybe he didn't have the courage to kill himself. Maybe something else. How could we possibly know what was going through his head?
So what is the source of your certainty that the vest could not have been detonated, if he hadn’t been shot? Even if he had a dead man switch? Because without that certainty your arguments don’t make sense.
I have expressed no certainty at all. I described a range of possibilities and concluded that the best solution, given all the many possibilities, was to keep the man pinned on the ground and call the bomb squad.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 359 by PaulK, posted 12-03-2019 3:22 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 369 by DrJones*, posted 12-04-2019 10:01 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied
 Message 371 by PaulK, posted 12-04-2019 1:48 PM Percy has replied

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2284
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 369 of 670 (867855)
12-04-2019 10:01 AM
Reply to: Message 368 by Percy
12-04-2019 9:37 AM


Re: Unarmed Police Does Work
Maybe he didn't have the courage to kill himself.
too fucking bad

It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 368 by Percy, posted 12-04-2019 9:37 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 370 of 670 (867861)
12-04-2019 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 367 by PaulK
12-04-2019 12:20 AM


Re: Unarmed Police Does Work
PaulK writes:
That’s a distortion of the argument. The argument relied on the fact that a dead man switch should be easier to operate than a manual detonator. Given the situation it is entirely possible that he could not have triggered a manual detonator.
Of course it's possible. I've been pointing out that there were many possibilities all along.
The suicide vest wasn’t noticed until they were pulling people off him. By that time it was too late to maintain the pile-on.
This isn't consistent with the video, which shows police in position to execute the man as soon as the last person, a civilian, was pulled off him. Can you point me to your information?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 367 by PaulK, posted 12-04-2019 12:20 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 372 by PaulK, posted 12-04-2019 1:51 PM Percy has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 371 of 670 (867873)
12-04-2019 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 368 by Percy
12-04-2019 9:37 AM


Re: Unarmed Police Does Work
quote:
Oh, geez, what was I thinking. When people don't panic nothing ever goes wrong. Doh!
Because things are always likely to go catastrophically wrong when a skilled professional is doing his job properly,
quote:
So we agree that it was an execution?
Of course not. The fact that it was done in much the same way does not touch on the central question. That is whether there was a perceived threat that justified the action.
quote:
This comes back to a point I made upthread. What kind of suicide vest has no dead man's switch and no detonator switch? A fake one
If you can think of a way that the police could know that there was no detonator switch - not just a convenient possibility but a reliable way of telling - then let’s hear it.
quote:
Not if he was still holding the button/switch/whatever in the "activate" position.
Which would have been noticed. Besides he would have had to arm it first. And why would he when he could cause maximum carnage by releasing it?
quote:
We can only speculate and enumerate the possibilities of what the suspect was thinking.
He wasn’t getting out of that. And the nature of his attack and the wearing of a suicide vest suggest that he never intended to.
quote:
I'd previously heard that police aim for the center of mass. Looking this up I found nothing about aiming for the head, but I of course accept that a trained marksman can hit the head from seven feet or so.
Which shows that a little knowledge without understanding leads to error. Generally a body shot is better. In this case a head shot is far better.
quote:
There are enumerable reasons why he wouldn't detonate the vest, and the type of switch (detonator switch versus dead man's switch) makes no difference to this aspect of the discussion. Maybe he thought a better opportunity might present itself. Maybe he decided he wanted to live. Maybe he didn't have the courage to kill himself. Maybe something else. How could we possibly know what was going through his head?
But he clearly planned to die. Taking the chance that he changed his mind doesn’t seem to be a good risk.
quote:
I have expressed no certainty at all. I described a range of possibilities and concluded that the best solution, given all the many possibilities, was to keep the man pinned on the ground and call the bomb squad.
Which means that you DO think that there was very little chance of him being able to detonate the vest. Even if it was real. But you’ve given no reason to think so, and your ability to think of possibilities seems curiously one-sided - failing to consider the possibility of a head shot being the most obvious.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 368 by Percy, posted 12-04-2019 9:37 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 373 by Percy, posted 12-04-2019 5:33 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 372 of 670 (867875)
12-04-2019 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 370 by Percy
12-04-2019 12:25 PM


Re: Unarmed Police Does Work
quote:
Of course it's possible. I've been pointing out that there were many possibilities all along.
But funnily enough you seemed to miss that one, even though it was a part of the argument.
quote:
This isn't consistent with the video, which shows police in position to execute the man as soon as the last person, a civilian, was pulled off him. Can you point me to your information?
The video. Obviously they couldn’t see the vest while people were piled on top of him.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 370 by Percy, posted 12-04-2019 12:25 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 381 by Percy, posted 12-05-2019 11:29 AM PaulK has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 373 of 670 (867903)
12-04-2019 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 371 by PaulK
12-04-2019 1:48 PM


Re: Unarmed Police Does Work
PaulK writes:
quote:
Oh, geez, what was I thinking. When people don't panic nothing ever goes wrong. Doh!
Because things are always likely to go catastrophically wrong when a skilled professional is doing his job properly,
Right, everything always goes according to plan.
quote:
So we agree that it was an execution?
Of course not.
Then when you pointed out that the shot was most likely to the head and that "in an execution style shooting the target would be the head," what did you mean if not that it was an execution?
The fact that it was done in much the same way does not touch on the central question. That is whether there was a perceived threat that justified the action.
In my view executions are never justified.
quote:
This comes back to a point I made upthread. What kind of suicide vest has no dead man's switch and no detonator switch? A fake one
If you can think of a way that the police could know that there was no detonator switch - not just a convenient possibility but a reliable way of telling - then let’s hear it.
I explained this upthread. You said there was little likelihood of a dead man's switch, and since it would look pretty much the same as a detonator switch, there was also little likelihood of a that, either.
quote:
Not if he was still holding the button/switch/whatever in the "activate" position.
Which would have been noticed.
What is the source of your certainty?
Besides he would have had to arm it first.
Press switch to activate, release to explode.
And why would he when he could cause maximum carnage by releasing it?
I addressed this already upthread.
quote:
We can only speculate and enumerate the possibilities of what the suspect was thinking.
He wasn’t getting out of that.
What is the source of your certainty?
And the nature of his attack and the wearing of a suicide vest suggest that he never intended to.
Again, there are many possibilities, and we can't know what the suspect was thinking. The nature of the attack, i.e. by knife, would suggest, among other possibilities, a fake vest.
quote:
I'd previously heard that police aim for the center of mass. Looking this up I found nothing about aiming for the head, but I of course accept that a trained marksman can hit the head from seven feet or so.
Which shows that a little knowledge without understanding leads to error. Generally a body shot is better. In this case a head shot is far better.
Well, sure, but I also could find nothing about where the suspect was shot. Upthread you said video suggests a head shot, but I don't see how you can tell. Perhaps you can point me to what you're looking at.
quote:
There are enumerable reasons why he wouldn't detonate the vest, and the type of switch (detonator switch versus dead man's switch) makes no difference to this aspect of the discussion. Maybe he thought a better opportunity might present itself. Maybe he decided he wanted to live. Maybe he didn't have the courage to kill himself. Maybe something else. How could we possibly know what was going through his head?
But he clearly planned to die.
Where does your certainty about the mind of the suspect come from?
Taking the chance that he changed his mind doesn’t seem to be a good risk.
Since you don't know the mind of the suspect, you also can't know if he changed it.
quote:
I have expressed no certainty at all. I described a range of possibilities and concluded that the best solution, given all the many possibilities, was to keep the man pinned on the ground and call the bomb squad.
Which means that you DO think that there was very little chance of him being able to detonate the vest. Even if it was real. But you’ve given no reason to think so, and your ability to think of possibilities seems curiously one-sided - failing to consider the possibility of a head shot being the most obvious.
Aiming at the head and hitting the head are two different things. The possibilities of setting off the vest and of a dead man's switch must still be considered.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 371 by PaulK, posted 12-04-2019 1:48 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 377 by PaulK, posted 12-05-2019 12:30 AM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 374 of 670 (867918)
12-04-2019 8:06 PM
Reply to: Message 365 by DrJones*
12-03-2019 9:54 PM


Re: Unarmed Police Does Work
DrJones* writes:
There was no need to kill him.
they prevented him from breaking free and running off into a crowd to detonate his bomb
Yes, I agree, executing the suspect did eliminate this possibility.
They should have ordered the suspect to remain on the ground as the passersby were removed from on top of him. When the last passerby was pulled away then any attempt by the suspect to rise would justify shooting him. In the leg. I of course don't buy the argument that every police use of their weapon must be a kill shot.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 365 by DrJones*, posted 12-03-2019 9:54 PM DrJones* has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 376 by DrJones*, posted 12-04-2019 9:08 PM Percy has replied
 Message 378 by Tangle, posted 12-05-2019 3:32 AM Percy has replied
 Message 397 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-06-2019 4:02 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 375 of 670 (867919)
12-04-2019 8:09 PM
Reply to: Message 366 by Hyroglyphx
12-03-2019 11:02 PM


Re: Unarmed Police Does Work
I said I was done with you in Message 339, and as long as you continue with your "argumentation through misrepresentation" I'm still done with you.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 366 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-03-2019 11:02 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 396 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-06-2019 3:41 PM Percy has replied

  
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