When the last passerby was pulled away then any attempt by the suspect to rise would justify shooting him.
how does shooting him in the leg prevent him from detonating the bomb?
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds soon I discovered that this rock thing was true Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world And so there was only one thing I could do Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On *not an actual doctor
quote:Right, everything always goes according to plan
Because just trusting that everything will go right as long as we do what Percy wants - no matter what the evidence suggests - is always tight.
Really, why can’t you just admit that I was right? There was little chance of the suicide vest being detonated by the shot ?
quote:Then when you pointed out that the shot was most likely to the head and that "in an execution style shooting the target would be the head," what did you mean if not that it was an execution?
I think it is rather likely that I meant what I said - which clearly refers only to the way the killing was carried out, not the reasons why it was done. As I already explained in the previous post.
quote:In my view executions are never justified.
Defence of self and others from an immediate threat is not an execution. That would bethe justification.
quote:I explained this upthread. You said there was little likelihood of a dead man's switch, and since it would look pretty much the same as a detonator switch, there was also little likelihood of a that, either.
That is a newly-invented misrepresentation. My argument was not based on appearances at all, but in the fact that a dead man switch should have been easier to operate than a detonator switch that was not in his hand. As I already explained.
quote:What is the source of your certainty?
If he had something in his hand wired to the vest it would have been sort of obvious.
quote:Press switch to activate, release to explode.
That’s not significantly different from a manual detonator, and doesn’t help you. Which was the reason for raising the point.
quote:I addressed this already upthread.
And I answered it upthread.
quote:What is the source of your certainty?
The fact that he was on the ground surrounded by armed police.
quote:Again, there are many possibilities, and we can't know what the suspect was thinking. The nature of the attack, i.e. by knife, would suggest, among other possibilities, a fake vest.
Upthread you suggest that the risk of the vest detonating is so severe that shooting him had to be avoided at all costs. Now you suggest that that risk must be taken in case the attacker changed his mind or was wearing a fake. This hardly seems consistent.
quote:Well, sure, but I also could find nothing about where the suspect was shot. Upthread you said video suggests a head shot, but I don't see how you can tell. Perhaps you can point me to what you're looking at.
Mainly where the gun is pointing at the time of the shot.
quote:Where does your certainty about the mind of the suspect come from?
The nature of the attack and the fake suicide vest. A real suicide vest would only underline the point.
quote:Since you don't know the mind of the suspect, you also can't know if he changed it.
I didn’t claim to know. I argued that it was too great a risk to assume that he had changed his mind.
quote:Aiming at the head and hitting the head are two different things. The possibilities of setting off the vest and of a dead man's switch must still be considered.
And I did consider them. Both are far less likely than the attacker detonating the vest if he was given the time to do so.
I of course don't buy the argument that every police use of their weapon must be a kill shot.
That is not the situation in the UK.
Firearms are only allowed at all in situations where an imminent lethal threat is realistically evident. When a tactical firearms team is called in their policy is to shoot to remove the threat. That usually means shooting into the chest area because that is the biggest target but that, of course, carries a risk of being fatal.
quote:To prevent an immediate threat to life by shooting to stop the subject from carrying out their intended or threatened course of action. In most circumstances this is achieved by aiming to strike the central body mass (i.e. the torso).
With terrorists - rather than armed criminals - the policy is very different.
Operation Kratos is the collective name for a range of anti-terrorist tactics, specifically:
Operation Andromeda, "designed to deal with the spontaneous sighting by a member of the public of a suspected suicide bomber."
Operation Beach, "where there is an intelligence-led covert operation to locate and arrest persons suspected of involvement in acts of terrorism."
Operation Clydesdale, "where intelligence has been received about a suicide attack on a pre-planned event."[2]
These plans deal with identifying and confronting suicide attackers. Ideally, the confrontation would be arranged in a secluded location to avoid risk to police officers and members of the public. In extreme situations, the policy recommends that covert police officers fire on suspected suicide attackers without warning, aiming multiple shots at the brain stem to minimise the risk of detonation of a bomb.[2][5] The Metropolitan Police and other forces also issue Kratos officers with hollow point ammunition, but this has not been incorporated into national guidance.[6]
The decision whether to take such drastic action would be made by a Designated Senior Officer (DSO), an officer of Commander or Deputy Assistant Commissioner rank designated for that incident.[2]
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
When the last passerby was pulled away then any attempt by the suspect to rise would justify shooting him.
how does shooting him in the leg prevent him from detonating the bomb?
It doesn't. Shooting him in the leg is to prevent him from running off to find a crowd in which to detonate his bomb.
The policemen are already within range of the bomb and would remain within range after shooting him in the leg, so this doesn't increase the danger to the policemen, and it doesn't expose them to the possibility of a dead man's switch.
The goal is to follow a course of action that leads through the least worst situations by accounting for their lethalities and probabilities.
The goal is to follow a course of action that leads through the least worst situations by accounting for their lethalities and probabilities.
or you could just shoot the guy in the head and be done with the possibility of him command detonating the bomb.
This was't a kid with a toy gun or a driver reaching for his ID, this was a suspect in multiple attacks with a deadly weapon, wearing what appeared to be a suicide vest the police acted appropriately.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds soon I discovered that this rock thing was true Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world And so there was only one thing I could do Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On *not an actual doctor
quote:Of course it's possible. I've been pointing out that there were many possibilities all along.
But funnily enough you seemed to miss that one, even though it was a part of the argument.
I think this may be reading something into the argument that wasn't there.
If we consider the same type of switch for both a detonator and a dead man's switch, say a thumb on a button of a cylindrical switch held in the hand, then they're both very easy to operate. One sets off the bomb when the thumb muscles flex, the other when they relax.
But what you said about the suspect no longer being able to trigger a manual detonator is certainly among the possibilities. For example, maybe he had let go of it and ended up lying atop it.
quote:This isn't consistent with the video, which shows police in position to execute the man as soon as the last person, a civilian, was pulled off him. Can you point me to your information?
The video. Obviously they couldn’t see the vest while people were piled on top of him.
Where in the video? The video appears to show police in position to execute the suspect before people were pulled off. Here it is again, please provide the time in the video I should be looking at:
The goal is to follow a course of action that leads through the least worst situations by accounting for their lethalities and probabilities.
or you could just shoot the guy in the head and be done with the possibility of him command detonating the bomb.
Ah, the Gordian Knot solution. But what if instead of tying a cart to a post the rope instead suspended a giant bolder overhead of the knot? In other words, you're forgetting the dead man's switch possibility. You're also endorsing an execution.
This was't a kid with a toy gun or a driver reaching for his ID, this was a suspect in multiple attacks with a deadly weapon,...
This appears to argue that committing an attack makes you fair game for execution instead of just arrest. I'm afraid I could never agree to that.
...wearing what appeared to be a suicide vest the police acted appropriately.
The police were already positioned for an execution before the fake suicide vest was revealed. Was that their plan, to execute the man once the last passersby had been pulled off? Or was aiming their guns just a precaution and they only fired after seeing the vest. We don't know because that's not public information at present. Maybe there will be an investigation where more information will come out.
As I argued earlier, most people are fine with the killing of the suspect because after it was all over it was found that two of the people he attacked had died and that he had served time in prison for terrorist activities. But that's post facto information that wasn't known to police when they executed the suspect. For all they knew everyone's wounds were superficial and the suspect was a schizophrenic who was having problems with adjustments to his medication.
My argument is that given what they knew at the time, execution was unjustified.
I'm endorsing the police acting in defense of themselves and others.
This appears to argue that committing an attack makes you fair game for execution instead of just arrest.
nope, you're leaving out the part where wearing a suicide vest makes you an imminent threat
Or was aiming their guns just a precaution and they only fired after seeing the vest.
have you never seen any footage of police aiming their guns at people? You aim the gun so that if you have to use it you're ready and you don't waste time acquiring your target. This wasn't preparing to execute the guy, it was preparing to respond to his actions.
For all they knew everyone's wounds were superficial and the suspect was a schizophrenic who was having problems with adjustments to his medication
what they knew was that he was wearing what appeared to be a suicide vest, he was an imminent threat to their lives and others.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds soon I discovered that this rock thing was true Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world And so there was only one thing I could do Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On *not an actual doctor
This appears to argue that committing an attack makes you fair game for execution instead of just arrest. I'm afraid I could never agree to that.
Would it make a difference if we changed your wording to
This appears to argue that committing an attack makes you fair game for being shot dead instead of just arrested.
? Because of course it does.
Calling it an 'execution' - and I believe earlier you've called it 'murder' - burdens it with delayed, deliberate, unnecessary and inevitable sanction.
The police are following policy, making split second decisions based on that policy and training are are subject to the same criminal law against murder that I am. Force of any kind must be reasonable according to the circumstances. Anybody acting outside that law will be prosecuted.
The terrorist also knows what to expect if he goes around knifing people in the street and wearing a suicide vest - he WILL be shot dead. I do not support the death penalty but I do support shooting people dead that are attempting to kill others.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
quote:I think this may be reading something into the argument that wasn't there.
If we consider the same type of switch for both a detonator and a dead man's switch, say a thumb on a button of a cylindrical switch held in the hand, then they're both very easy to operate. One sets off the bomb when the thumb muscles flex, the other when they relax.
If he had a detonator in his hand and if the police officer standing right over it couldn’t tell how he was holding it you might have a point. But that was not in the argument and it looks like just another of your unlikely possibilities.
Since he was attacking with two knives, however, it’s far more likely that he wasn’t holding a detonator.
quote:Where in the video?
The first twenty seconds. It’s clear that there were multiple people piled on top of him and obstructing the view.
Yesterday in Florida gunfire erupted all over when two men attempted to rob a jewelry store in Coral Gables. First the shopkeeper exchanged gunfire with the robbers. A female employee was shot in the head, her condition is unknown at this time.
The robbers fled and a bullet pierced a window at City Hall across the street where fortunately no one was hurt.
Then the robbers rode their getaway truck north for about 20 minutes when they commandeered a UPS truck and its driver. They were pursued by police who caught up to them in afternoon rush hour traffic in Miramar and began a shootout that left four people dead: the two robbers, the UPS driver, and a motorist caught in traffic.
This whole affair is just one huge cluster fuck. The jewelry store clerk should have allowed the thieves to steal the jewelry and flee. Police had already been alerted via silent alarm. The police should not have engaged in a shootout on a major highway during rush hour, or ever. Just let the robbers get away. There is such a thing as detectives.
There are too many people in Florida with guns who are ready and willing to use them in inappropriate situations, and some of them are police.
I'm endorsing the police acting in defense of themselves and others.
You're endorsing the reason this thread exists: police get away with murder by arguing they felt threatened, and they are trained to aim their shots where they will be as deadly as possible.
This appears to argue that committing an attack makes you fair game for execution instead of just arrest.
nope, you're leaving out the part where wearing a suicide vest makes you an imminent threat
I am not ignoring any possibilities. This is a possibility that I fully endorse taking into account. Striking the vest inadvertently or a dead man's switch are also possibilities that must be taken into account.
Or was aiming their guns just a precaution and they only fired after seeing the vest.
Have you never seen any footage of police aiming their guns at people?
I don't see the relevance of the question, but yes I have, usually captured by bystander cellphone video just before the police murder someone.
You aim the gun so that if you have to use it you're ready and you don't waste time acquiring your target. This wasn't preparing to execute the guy, it was preparing to respond to his actions.
What action did the man take that police responded to by shooting him dead?
For all they knew everyone's wounds were superficial and the suspect was a schizophrenic who was having problems with adjustments to his medication
What they knew was that he was wearing what appeared to be a suicide vest, he was an imminent threat to their lives and others.
So you believe that the police were aiming their rifles at the suspect as a precaution, then when the last person was pulled off they saw the suicide vest and fired fatally. The kill shot came so quickly after the last passerby was pulled off the suspect that I very much doubt this.
There will likely be an investigation that will draw upon many cell phone videos, and only then will we know whether police really saw any suicide vest before firing or if that was just post facto rationalization. That the police didn't call the bomb squad to assess the danger before approaching the dead body themselves argues against the fake suicide vest being any factor.
It's all optics from here. The consequences for the police from what emerges from the investigation will be minor to non-existent. The whole affair will be viewed as a big success for the police because the suspect murdered two people and had served time in prison for terrorist activity, information the police were unaware of when they shot him.
But if everyone's wounds had been minor and if the suspect had turned out to be a mental patient then the optics would invert and the police would be much more exposed to the possibility of censure and worse.
An objective approach demands that we judge police actions based upon what they knew at the time. That our judgment of whether the police are guilty of any malfeasance is colored by post facto information says clearly that we're not being objective.
What action did the man take that police responded to by shooting him dead?
he put on a suicide vest and went out in public.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds soon I discovered that this rock thing was true Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world And so there was only one thing I could do Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On *not an actual doctor
... having just murdered two people with two knives, one taped to his hand so he couldn't be disarmed, fully intending to murder as many more as he possibly could.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
quote:Right, everything always goes according to plan
Because just trusting that everything will go right as long as we do what Percy wants - no matter what the evidence suggests - is always right.
I think I am only guilty of arguing for my position, as are you.
Really, why can’t you just admit that I was right?
Uh, because you're not?
There was little chance of the suicide vest being detonated by the shot?
And you know this how?
quote:Then when you pointed out that the shot was most likely to the head and that "in an execution style shooting the target would be the head," what did you mean if not that it was an execution?
I think it is rather likely that I meant what I said - which clearly refers only to the way the killing was carried out, not the reasons why it was done. As I already explained in the previous post.
I'll interpret this confused explanation as an indication that you'd like to drop this point.
quote:In my view executions are never justified.
Defense of self and others from an immediate threat is not an execution. That would be the justification.
That's always the police defense: they felt threatened, and the threat justified use of deadly force. Courts and the public are very gradually diminishing their acceptance of this defense.
quote:I explained this upthread. You said there was little likelihood of a dead man's switch, and since it would look pretty much the same as a detonator switch, there was also little likelihood of a that, either.
That is a newly-invented misrepresentation.
It is neither newly-invented nor a misrepresentation. I described this before, though not in a post to you. Read the thread.
My argument was not based on appearances at all, but in the fact that a dead man switch should have been easier to operate than a detonator switch that was not in his hand. As I already explained.
If you had "already explained" this then the words "detonator" and "hand" would have appeared in one of your earlier posts, but they don't.
quote:What is the source of your certainty?
If he had something in his hand wired to the vest it would have been sort of obvious.
How small can they make switches these days?
quote:Press switch to activate, release to explode.
That’s not significantly different from a manual detonator, and doesn’t help you. Which was the reason for raising the point.
You raised the fact that "he would have had to arm it first" as an objection to the dead man's switch possibility, so I pointed out that one only has to press the switch to activate the bomb.
quote:I addressed this already upthread.
And I answered it upthread.
No you didn't.
The board software makes it easy to advance forward and backward in a subthread, and it does have a search facility. Prior posts are not a black box.
quote:What is the source of your certainty?
The fact that he was on the ground surrounded by armed police.
We were talking about your certainty of the mind of the suspect. The question wasn't about the reality of the unlikelihood of him escaping. It was about your certainty about what the suspect believed was possible, because what he believed possible would govern his decision making about what actions to take.
quote:Again, there are many possibilities, and we can't know what the suspect was thinking. The nature of the attack, i.e. by knife, would suggest, among other possibilities, a fake vest.
Upthread you suggest that the risk of the vest detonating is so severe that shooting him had to be avoided at all costs. Now you suggest that that risk must be taken in case the attacker changed his mind or was wearing a fake. This hardly seems consistent.
When there are many possible ways something could play out, i.e., many possibilities, of course they're not all consistent with one another. We mustn't become stuck upon one scenario based upon what actually played out but must keep in mind the variety of ways things could have played out.
quote:Well, sure, but I also could find nothing about where the suspect was shot. Upthread you said video suggests a head shot, but I don't see how you can tell. Perhaps you can point me to what you're looking at.
Mainly where the gun is pointing at the time of the shot.
The YouTube video is a sequence of shorter videos of the event concatenated together. I can't know what you're looking at unless you tell me the point in time in the video that you're looking at. Here's the video again, it would be appreciated if you could tell me the time in the video I should look at:
quote:Where does your certainty about the mind of the suspect come from?
The nature of the attack and the fake suicide vest. A real suicide vest would only underline the point.
How does it undermine the point?
quote:Since you don't know the mind of the suspect, you also can't know if he changed it.
I didn’t claim to know. I argued that it was too great a risk to assume that he had changed his mind.
This repeats the same error. If you don't know the mind of the suspect, you also can't know if he changed it.
quote:Aiming at the head and hitting the head are two different things. The possibilities of setting off the vest and of a dead man's switch must still be considered.
And I did consider them. Both are far less likely than the attacker detonating the vest if he was given the time to do so.
I could agree that they seem less likely, not "far less likely," but even "far less likely" is not the same as "can be ignored" given the catastrophic consequences of being wrong.
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