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Author | Topic: Christianity is Morally Bankrupt | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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Phat writes: So apparently Tangle keeps bugging me to answer the bloody question that he asks, namely "why does God appear evil in scripture, Christ on a bike Phat, I'm not asking that question!!!
and why did God have to do things the way that He did? Hurrah! Getting closer.
The argument is that it appears to be an evil act in creating people and then trashing them and damning them simply to hone a select and exclusive subgroup who then goes on to populate Heaven and achieve greater glory. First of all, I dont think that my God would do such a thing, and am taking this as an opportunity to once again study the oldest book in the Bible, the story of Job. Close your sodding book and try to think for yourself. I'm not interested in Job, can you answer why there's a loving god that makes this happen to you?
quote: Why, if he loves you did he make you suffer and not just do what a real loving father would do? ps, sorry about your eye, that's fucking miserable. I hope science can help you.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Taq Member Posts: 10073 Joined: Member Rating: 5.2
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Faith writes: But yes there is a comparison to be made between heaven and Eden that seems to suggest we could have been happy in Eden as of coruse everyone is in heaven. You are saying that you wouldn't be happy in heaven because there is no evil or suffering. That would make it boring according to you. You are saying that we can't be happy unless there is evil and suffering.
But maybe this explains it: Adam and Eve started out without the knowledge of good and evil that they would get only by disobedience of God. But God says that would make them like "us, knowing good and evil" so in heaven they DO know of good and evil. Adam and Eve learned of good and evil after eating of the Tree of Knowledge. They didn't start out with this knowledge. We also have this knowledge right now. So what gives? Will we lose this knowledge when we go to heaven? Are we stripped of free will when we get to heaven so that we can't disobey God? Why can't Earth be like heaven?
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Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Percy writes: Tangle seems to be asking a different question now, but I'm still interested in the answer to the question he was asking when I joined the discussion. Why doesn't a loving God make his "voice" available to all? Still waiting...Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Phat Member Posts: 18335 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Why doesn't a loving God make his "voice" available to all? What form would this voice take? Is there more than one form?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1470 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined:
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But yes there is a comparison to be made between heaven and Eden that seems to suggest we could have been happy in Eden as of coruse everyone is in heaven. You are saying that you wouldn't be happy in heaven because there is no evil or suffering. That would make it boring according to you. You are saying that we can't be happy unless there is evil and suffering. Shortly after this post I elaborated, saying that we WOULD be happy in heaven where they have the knowledge of good and evil, whereas Adam and Eve did not have that knowledge. I didn't say there couldn't be happiness, I said that it would be static, but the knowledge of good and evil would make it more like heaven. Except in the case of Adam and Eve it required disobedience to bring it about and that's what causes suffering. In the end we should haved knowledge of good and evil and perfect happiness without suffering. No we don't lose this knowledge in heaven becaue it exists in heaven.
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Percy writes: I apologize for implying that you were.
I'm not an atheist. I may not be a Christian (or a Jew or a Muslim or a Hindu or a Buddhist and so forth), but I am definitely not an atheist. Percy writes: It is simply that I see evolution as being a result of intelligence. However within the evolutionary process the mutations that bring about positive changes also have glitches. As a result we have mental illness, cancer and tsunamis etc. You continue on to say a great deal about evolution, but if there's some connection between Tangle's question and evolution then I don't see it. However, I have always agreed that suffering is the biggest question we have to deal with as Christians. However we have been given as humans the capability to alleviate much of it and the empathy required to act on those capabilities. IMHO it only makes sense that the fact that we are capable of feeling empathy and acting on it implies that there is an empathetic intelligence behind it all. This being the case then I have to conclude that suffering is a unfortunate necessity.
Percy writes: I don't agree that He doesn't. Psychopathy definition: Tangle seems to be asking a different question now, but I'm still interested in the answer to the question he was asking when I joined the discussion. Why doesn't a loving God make his "voice" available to all?quote:Certainly the ability in those with this disorder have their ability to react positively to their conscience, (God's still small voice), but it doesn't mean that it sin't there, or they aren't aware of it. He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
GDR writes: Certainly the ability in those with this disorder have their ability to react positively to their conscience, (God's still small voice) Uh? Empathy is the emotion that makes us feel the hurt in others and makes us want to help them. Psychopaths lack conscience because they lack this emotion, they don't hear this 'still small voice', they don't feel that when they harm others that they are doing wrong. They think they can do anything they want regardless of the effect on others. It's in your definition. Psychopathy is traditionally a personality disorder characterized by persistent antisocial behavior, impaired empathy and remorse, and bold, disinhibited, and egotistical traits. It is sometimes considered synonymous with sociopathy. The only thing that stops them harming others routinely to further their own goals is their intelligence which tells them that society will punish them for doing it. So they spend a lot of time and energy on not getting caught and/or work at not doing the things that they have learnt from society will get them into trouble even if they don't understand why.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17827 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
Psychopathy
Psychopaths can appear normal, even charming. Underneath, they lack any semblance of conscience. Psychology Today
A key difference between a psychopath and a sociopath is whether he has a conscience, the little voice inside that lets us know when we’re doing something wrong, says L. Michael Tompkins, EdD. He's a psychologist at the Sacramento County Mental Health Treatment Center. A psychopath doesn’t have a conscience. If he lies to you so he can steal your money, he won’t feel any moral qualms, though he may pretend to. He may observe others and then act the way they do so he’s not found out, Tompkins says. WebMD
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Percy Member Posts: 22492 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
GDR writes: Percy writes: I apologize for implying that you were. I'm not an atheist. I may not be a Christian (or a Jew or a Muslim or a Hindu or a Buddhist and so forth), but I am definitely not an atheist. No need to apologize, I get mistaken for an atheist all the time. I only mentioned it because your argument seemed specific to atheists.
However within the evolutionary process the mutations that bring about positive changes also have glitches. As a result we have mental illness, cancer and tsunamis etc. Tsunamis are caused by mutations?
IMHO it only makes sense that the fact that we are capable of feeling empathy and acting on it implies that there is an empathetic intelligence behind it all. Ah, now I see the connection to evolution, since empathy has an evolutionary explanation. Why do you choose "an empathetic intelligence" over evolution?
This being the case then I have to conclude that suffering is an unfortunate necessity. But your conclusion of "an empathetic intelligence" is highly questionable, and this further conclusion about suffering being necessary with a God of infinite power even more so.
Percy writes: Tangle seems to be asking a different question now, but I'm still interested in the answer to the question he was asking when I joined the discussion. Why doesn't a loving God make his "voice" available to all? I don't agree that He doesn't. You said mental illness could prevent people from hearing it, which is millions of people, and which is why I think Tangle asked the question, and why you're answering in a psychological context:
Psychopathy definition:
quote: Certainly the ability in those with this disorder have their ability to react positively to their conscience, (God's still small voice), but it doesn't mean that it isn't there, or they aren't aware of it. This additional detail seems to contradict what you said earlier. First you said the voice might not be heard by the mentally ill, but now you say they could be aware of what they cannot hear. You seem to be working out the answers as you go along, which is fine, but I'm not interested in being a participant in the process. I'd rather wait until you've worked it all out. --Percy
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Taq Member Posts: 10073 Joined: Member Rating: 5.2 |
Faith writes: Shortly after this post I elaborated, saying that we WOULD be happy in heaven where they have the knowledge of good and evil, whereas Adam and Eve did not have that knowledge. We have the knowledge of good and evil, so why can't Earth and this universe be free of evil and suffering?
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1470 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I answered that too, Taq, but I'm not up to tracking it down. Because we disobeyed, we don't merely have knowledge as God does, we committed sin, and we commit it every day, 3we are in opposition to God. I believe that in the end knowledge we will have, we will have memory of it all, but we will be free of sin and the power to sin. In Eden they had the power to sin and not the knowledge of good and evil. They ac quired that knowledge by disobeying God, by committing sin. The wages of sin is death, that is sin, opposition to God, disobedience of His morela law is the cause of all sufferinjg.
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Taq Member Posts: 10073 Joined: Member Rating: 5.2 |
Faith writes: Because we disobeyed, we don't merely have knowledge as God does, we committed sin, and we commit it every day, 3we are in opposition to God. That's not what the Bible says. The Bible says that Adam and Eve acquired the knowledge of good and evil by disobeying God. That's the exact opposite of what you are saying.
I believe that in the end knowledge we will have, we will have memory of it all, but we will be free of sin and the power to sin. So what is stopping us from disobeying once we are in heaven? Do we lose all free will?
In Eden they had the power to sin and not the knowledge of good and evil. They ac quired that knowledge by disobeying God, by committing sin. The wages of sin is death, that is sin, opposition to God, disobedience of His morela law is the cause of all sufferinjg. Then why are you saying that we don't have knowledge of good and evil because we disobeyed God?
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1470 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
You are saying I haven't said what in fact I have said and more than once and pretty cleqarly I thought. Yes we have the knowledge of good and evil because we disoberyed God. Good grief, I don't know how I could have been any clearer.
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Taq Member Posts: 10073 Joined: Member Rating: 5.2 |
Faith writes: Yes we have the knowledge of good and evil because we disoberyed God. Good grief, I don't know how I could have been any clearer. "Because we disobeyed, we don't merely have knowledge as God does, we committed sin, and we commit it every day, 3we are in opposition to God." Also, will we lose the free will to disobey God when we are in heaven?
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1470 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
What you quoted seems to me to say exactly what you say I didn't say.
Yes we will no longer have the freee will to sin/disobey God, but we will have the knowledgeof good and evil.
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