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Author Topic:   Christianity is Morally Bankrupt
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 541 of 652 (868142)
12-07-2019 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 535 by Faith
12-07-2019 1:35 PM


Re: The Stories We Invent
Faith writes:
There is a difference between the KNOWLEDGE of good and evil, which of course God has, and Adam and Eve's disobedience which brought about that knowledge in their case.
So A&E and god have the knowledge and now we do, great.
They got the knowleddge but they also got the sin and its suffering.
So we suffer and die. Fabulous.
OK, I'm dead and in heaven with knowledge of good and evil. So I can sin. How does that work? It's supposed to be paradise, can I still get mugged? If so how's it paradise? Why would I want to steal if it's paradise and I can have anything I ever wanted - or I don't need anything?
How do you know all this?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 535 by Faith, posted 12-07-2019 1:35 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 545 by Phat, posted 12-07-2019 3:33 PM Tangle has replied

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 735 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 542 of 652 (868143)
12-07-2019 3:19 PM


I’m glad it’s just electrons and not real ink that’s getting spilled here. Squids could get put on the endangered species list, and all for a discussion of fictional stuff by folks, several of whom likely know better.

Replies to this message:
 Message 544 by Phat, posted 12-07-2019 3:30 PM Coragyps has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 543 of 652 (868144)
12-07-2019 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 533 by Tangle
12-07-2019 1:30 PM


Re: The Stories We Invent
Tangle writes:
Right so I can carry on sinning in heaven, can I?
the same way that you could choose to be disruptive in a club until they threw you out. The one right you won't have in heaven is the right to be there.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 533 by Tangle, posted 12-07-2019 1:30 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 548 by Tangle, posted 12-07-2019 4:10 PM Phat has replied
 Message 563 by ringo, posted 12-08-2019 1:28 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 544 of 652 (868145)
12-07-2019 3:30 PM
Reply to: Message 542 by Coragyps
12-07-2019 3:19 PM


Ceasing To Exist Some Day..Make Today Count
Just because you are a laconic pragmatic realist! Sheesh I suppose you think that this life is all you have and then you cease to exist. I'm just guessing.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 542 by Coragyps, posted 12-07-2019 3:19 PM Coragyps has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 546 by Coragyps, posted 12-07-2019 3:57 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 545 of 652 (868147)
12-07-2019 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 541 by Tangle
12-07-2019 3:18 PM


Re: The Stories We Invent
tangle writes:
So we suffer and die. Fabulous.
That sums up what science would conclude about human existence. Scientists are not philosophers though. I will ask you the same question I asked Coragyps.
Is this life all you think you have? Once you die does tangle the personality cease to exist?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 541 by Tangle, posted 12-07-2019 3:18 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 549 by Tangle, posted 12-07-2019 4:22 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 735 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


(1)
Message 546 of 652 (868149)
12-07-2019 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 544 by Phat
12-07-2019 3:30 PM


Re: Ceasing To Exist Some Day..Make Today Count
Precisely. When all the voltages across my assorted synapses go to zero, that’ll be the end of me. You can try as you might, but you can’t produce a shred of evidence that it’s ever worked otherwise. John Lennon said above us, only sky. He was correct.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 544 by Phat, posted 12-07-2019 3:30 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 547 of 652 (868151)
12-07-2019 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 539 by Phat
12-07-2019 3:05 PM


Phat writes:
We are judged by what we do, but we are forgiven based on what we confess.
But again, that is contrary to what the Bible claims Jesus says.
Remember Matt 25?
Remember Not all who say Lord Lord?
If we are forgiven is will not be based on what we confess or what we believe or what we say or what we do; it will be by the Grace of God.
If we are damned it will be because of what we do not do.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 539 by Phat, posted 12-07-2019 3:05 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 548 of 652 (868152)
12-07-2019 4:10 PM
Reply to: Message 543 by Phat
12-07-2019 3:28 PM


Re: The Stories We Invent
Phat writes:
the same way that you could choose to be disruptive in a club until they threw you out. The one right you won't have in heaven is the right to be there.
Hang on, I'm in paradise why would I want to be disruptive? Don't I have everything? Isn't everything perfect?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 543 by Phat, posted 12-07-2019 3:28 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 550 by Phat, posted 12-07-2019 4:24 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 549 of 652 (868153)
12-07-2019 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 545 by Phat
12-07-2019 3:33 PM


Re: The Stories We Invent
Phat writes:
Is this life all you think you have? Once you die does tangle the personality cease to exist?
Do you really need an answer? I'm an atheist, when I die that's it. No more fishing.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 545 by Phat, posted 12-07-2019 3:33 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 550 of 652 (868154)
12-07-2019 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 548 by Tangle
12-07-2019 4:10 PM


Re: The Stories We Invent
Hang on, I'm in paradise why would I want to be disruptive? Don't I have everything? Isn't everything perfect?
Of course. Some believe that free will exists in heaven--otherwise, 1/3 of the rebel angels would never have defected and gotten thrown out. We don't know if humans will have the same option. In general, nobody would want to cause ruckus or disruption in such a place except maybe cantankerous old rebels such as jar!
jar writes:
I cannot imagine a worse hell than sitting around singing praises for eternity. Puppy love is fine when you're a pre-teen but I have to believe that an afterlife must be something with a little more substance to it.
:. jar likes the idea of personal responsibility and an honor system. He dislikes getting your sins wiped away as if by magic.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 548 by Tangle, posted 12-07-2019 4:10 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 552 by Tangle, posted 12-07-2019 4:38 PM Phat has replied
 Message 564 by ringo, posted 12-08-2019 1:32 PM Phat has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 551 of 652 (868155)
12-07-2019 4:34 PM
Reply to: Message 536 by Hyroglyphx
12-07-2019 1:46 PM


Re: The Stories We Invent
Hyroglyphx writes:
Judas was predestined to betray Jesus... he didn't have a choice as he was selected to play a vital role (the antagonist) in the story.
The bible doesn't actually say that. It does say that Jesus knew that Judas would betray Him but it doesn't say that Jesus had supernatural knowledge that Judas would do what he did.
Personally I have a fair bit of sympathy with Judas. The were living in a land where they were ruled,brutalized and taxed to death by the hated Romans. (Herod was obviously a puppet power.) Jesus' message was that they were called to love their enemies, turn the other cheek, go the extra mile etc. Obviously this was not an easy message to sell and Jesus could easily be branded as a traitor to anyone with a rebellious streak. (I wonder if you were Dutch in 1942, and someone was going around preaching the message that the way to defeat the enemies was to love them, how you might react.)
My point was simply that what Judas did he did by personal choice and that Jesus knew what Judas was going to do by any one of the possible ways, but not supernaturally.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 536 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-07-2019 1:46 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 567 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-08-2019 6:53 PM GDR has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 552 of 652 (868156)
12-07-2019 4:38 PM
Reply to: Message 550 by Phat
12-07-2019 4:24 PM


Re: The Stories We Invent
Phat writes:
Of course. Some believe that free will exists in heaven--otherwise, 1/3 of the rebel angels would never have defected and gotten thrown out. We don't know if humans will have the same option. In general, nobody would want to cause ruckus or disruption in such a place except maybe cantankerous old rebels such as jar!
But anybody causing a ruckus would make me unhappy, so how does that work?
You're making this up as you go along aren't you?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 550 by Phat, posted 12-07-2019 4:24 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 553 by Phat, posted 12-07-2019 4:50 PM Tangle has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 553 of 652 (868158)
12-07-2019 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 552 by Tangle
12-07-2019 4:38 PM


Re: The Stories We Invent
But anybody causing a ruckus would make me unhappy, so how does that work?
It makes you a liberal-minded person who believes that nobody needs to change in order to get accepted into Heaven. It won't be a democracy. Its more like a retirement home where you trust the caregiver. Granted we will likely have other tasks to learn and other jobs to do eventually.
You're making this up as you go along aren't you?
Yes. yes, I am. Nobody has any idea if Heaven or God exists at all. Those who believe are comfortable in their beliefs. The rest are likely more comfortable with the belief that humans will either live or die entirely on their own efforts.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 552 by Tangle, posted 12-07-2019 4:38 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 554 by Tangle, posted 12-07-2019 4:56 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 557 by GDR, posted 12-07-2019 7:55 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 565 by ringo, posted 12-08-2019 1:37 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(2)
Message 554 of 652 (868159)
12-07-2019 4:56 PM
Reply to: Message 553 by Phat
12-07-2019 4:50 PM


Re: The Stories We Invent
Phat writes:
Yes. yes, I am. Nobody has any idea if Heaven or God exists at all. Those who believe are comfortable in their beliefs.
You didn't take that red pill did you?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 553 by Phat, posted 12-07-2019 4:50 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 555 of 652 (868163)
12-07-2019 6:28 PM
Reply to: Message 524 by GDR
12-07-2019 11:42 AM


Re: Our conscience
GDR writes:
Sorry to be slow getting back to you. Life gets in the way.
No hurry.
Percy writes:
Tsunamis are caused by mutations?
Of course not. I had made the point earlier that mutations result in things like cancer and tsunamis are the result of living in a world subject to entropy and decay.
Oops, sorry, I parsed it differently than you intended.
Percy writes:
Ah, now I see the connection to evolution, since empathy has an evolutionary explanation. Why do you choose "an empathetic intelligence" over evolution?
But I don't. I am saying that an empathetic intelligence is responsible for evolution.
Uh, okay.
Percy writes:
But your conclusion of "an empathetic intelligence" is highly questionable, and this further conclusion about suffering being necessary with a God of infinite power even more so.
Do you really think that intelligence, let alone empathy, is more easily evolved from mindless particles and then chemicals by chance than from intelligence?
What studying nature tells us, that's what I think.
I can't muster up the faith to believe that.
Me either.
Also what is infinite power mean anyway.
Got me, but many religions assign various powers without limit to God.
Sure the intelligence required to bring about life as we know would seem somewhat infinite to us but that doesn't mean that there aren't limitations.
Have you ever asked yourself how this God is any different from an alien race far more advanced than ours?
We can really only speculate why God caused life to be the way that it is,...
Isn't everything about God speculative?
...but it does seem likely IMHO, that the goal was to create empathetic beings who live lives characterized by sacrificial love of others. Somehow this characteristic will be the norm in a renewed creation.
I'm speechless.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 524 by GDR, posted 12-07-2019 11:42 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 556 by GDR, posted 12-07-2019 7:44 PM Percy has replied

  
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