Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 0/13 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Christianity is Morally Bankrupt
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 525 of 652 (868113)
12-07-2019 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 523 by ringo
12-07-2019 11:02 AM


Re: The purpose of it all
OK here is one by Catholic Apologist Peter Kreeft:
Comments?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 523 by ringo, posted 12-07-2019 11:02 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 526 by ringo, posted 12-07-2019 12:41 PM Phat has replied
 Message 527 by jar, posted 12-07-2019 12:42 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 528 of 652 (868117)
12-07-2019 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 527 by jar
12-07-2019 12:42 PM


The Stories We Invent
I never said humans won't still have free will in heaven. Satan certainly did...why wouldn't any other Being? The difference between Adam & WEve is that they were innocent when they chose knowledge. The ones who end up in Heaven will have free will and full knowledge of the differences between ultimate good and ultimate evil. I don't know what Satan was thinking, but even he was foreknown to fall.
You pays your nickle and you takes your chances.
The problem with logic, reason, and reality is that you keep your nickel, invest in humanity, and still take your chances. I suppose that nobody really *knows* the outcome in an absolute sense. We ar all free to either be religious, attend church, or simply roll up our sleeves and help the neighbor take out her trash and reach things high on the shelf. GOD, if GOD exists watches everything.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 527 by jar, posted 12-07-2019 12:42 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 529 by Faith, posted 12-07-2019 1:00 PM Phat has replied
 Message 532 by Faith, posted 12-07-2019 1:30 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 533 by Tangle, posted 12-07-2019 1:30 PM Phat has replied
 Message 536 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-07-2019 1:46 PM Phat has replied
 Message 537 by jar, posted 12-07-2019 1:50 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 530 of 652 (868120)
12-07-2019 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 526 by ringo
12-07-2019 12:41 PM


Re: The purpose of it all
ringo writes:
What's the difference between creating evil and creating the possibility of evil?
Because simply creating evil makes God "complete" as jar asserts. I believe that God is good. Not good and evil.
If I give a four-year-old a loaded pistol, it's possible that evil will ensue but it's also possible that it won't.
And once humans were given the knowledge of how to make pistols, we made a bunch of them. The Tree of knowledge is a mixed bag. We grew up and made many things. Some good and some bad. Would we have been better off choosing the other tree instead?
If evil does ensue, who's responsible?
It depends on how mature and responsible one is. If an adult uses a pistol incorrectly, they cant simply sue Samuel Colt. Or even the yahoo who invented bump stocks. Evil was made possible only to give us a full choice. As a species, we are growing up and learning how to be responsible. The jury is still out as to whether we can do it fully without Jesus needing to come back bodily. The other guy certainly continues to market his agenda.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 526 by ringo, posted 12-07-2019 12:41 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 562 by ringo, posted 12-08-2019 1:20 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 531 of 652 (868121)
12-07-2019 1:20 PM
Reply to: Message 529 by Faith
12-07-2019 1:00 PM


Re: No more sin after this life
Another question I have is why God binds Satan for 1000 years and then lets him loose again? Look that one up too.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 529 by Faith, posted 12-07-2019 1:00 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 534 by Faith, posted 12-07-2019 1:33 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 538 of 652 (868138)
12-07-2019 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 535 by Faith
12-07-2019 1:35 PM


Re: The Stories We Invent
I will go with the idea that the story is metaphorical. It is an explanation of why people die. Whether we initially could have been eternal is a moot point, as we never attained that level. The execution mentioned is the actual action (disobedience) that caused the sentence(death) to become real. We executed ourselves in effect (and metaphorically). This whole idea of the knowledge of right and wrong being a great gift assumes that more value should be placed on learning than on obedience. In today's world, with no physical God present, learning is indeed preferable to obedience. The 60's bumper sticker, Question Authority comes to mind. jar and ringo take it a step farther and question God at every turn. Perhaps a case can hypothetically be made that the god characters in the book are human inventions, but this does not diminish the possibility of a perfect, completely knowledgeable Creator of all seen and unseen existing...long before any humans appeared or any books were written. All throughout human history we have sought to understand God and to connect with an actual living and active One rather than some statue or temple or character in a book. Thus, on the one hand, it is a good exercise in human reasoning to interact with god characters which we ourselves describe. I do it all the time. At the same time, however, I believe in an actual GOD knowable through the character of Jesus Christ and not simply limited to the scrolls from one 66 part book.
When I hypothesize about the actual character of this Deity whom I believe in, I am unafraid to question myself, but my capacity to question the Deity is limited to prayer and reverence. I don't insult such a belief by dragging the character through the mud.
If one believes that God is in charge, living and active and that He has allowed an adversary to also exist in this realm and test humans, then one uses the books to fit that scenario. (and one understands the book through being born again)
If one is a skeptic, atheist, or secular critic interested only in human nature and literary prose, one can more easily explain away the god character and build their faith in human wisdom, reasoning, and habit. This is in large part why we often disagree and why some of you think that apologists are dishonest. I will concede, however, that dishonesty itself is a human trait. I chalk it up to the allowance of free will and sin, but others can describe it through biological evolution.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 535 by Faith, posted 12-07-2019 1:35 PM Faith has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 539 of 652 (868140)
12-07-2019 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 537 by jar
12-07-2019 1:50 PM


Re: The Stories We Invent
jar writes:
Phat, either Heaven will have sin as well as not sinning or the folk in heaven will have no freedom of choice.
Agreed. Again, the fact that there was a War in Heaven would seem to prove that point. And there are many stories and many explanations given by human reasoning and literature. I can speculate and make up scenarios all day. For example, Revelation 20:1-12.
1Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pita and a great chain. 2And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, 3and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.
4Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.
The Defeat of Satan
7And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. 9And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heavenb and consumed them, 10and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Judgment Before the Great White Throne
11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.
People may ask what this story is supposed to teach. I see it as God using Satan as a tool to tempt(temper) humanity in order to help sift the wheat from the chaff. In Lesson One we were given the knowledge of good and evil, while we were innocent. Whoever passes that test gets a thousand-year free pass to learn lesson 2. Then, Satan is released to be allowed to tempt the Saints (by that time) again, similar to how he was allowed to sway 1/3 of the angels to join him. We become the decisions we make. You have a point at teaching responsibility vs get-out-of-hell-free theology. Personally, I think both are needed. We are judged by what we do, but we are forgiven based on what we confess.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 537 by jar, posted 12-07-2019 1:50 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 547 by jar, posted 12-07-2019 4:02 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 540 of 652 (868141)
12-07-2019 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 536 by Hyroglyphx
12-07-2019 1:46 PM


Re: The Stories We Invent
NJ writes:
Judas was predestined to betray Jesus... he didn't have a choice as he was selected to play a vital role (the antagonist) in the story. Same with the Pharaoh.
Yes, they were foreknown. Evil already existed. God may have hardened Pharoahs heart by withdrawing His grace. Pharoah willfully chose to be stubborn due to pride, or greed, or some other aspect of evil that already existed. Evil exists as a tempering agent. It strengthens those who resist it, much as lifting weights allows muscles to strengthen through resisting the weight. Judas was foreknown, but technically had a choice. God would have simply then needed another Judas to complete the plan. If Henry Ford had never invented the Model A, someone else would have eventually.
Some people are dealt shit hands in life, would you agree?
We all are given different temptations and weaknesses. Perhaps so we have the opportunity to learn from the trials of others. This life is tough. Its not some paradise nor would it ever be one even if God did not exist and humans were building the best world they possibly could.
The issue I am defending is the idea that God if God exists, has a definite plan which tests different people differently. If they have a problem being denied true free will, perhaps they need to learn the lesson that satan learned. One cannot freely choose a world without God if God exists. They will face the music one way or another.
Now, do you agree that we both have the exact same choice to either say yes or no to the vice?
No two people have the exact same set of challenges nor opportunities. It appears that the way this is all set up, life is not fair.
The issue is not whether we have full free will. The issue is what we do with the choices we are given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 536 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-07-2019 1:46 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 561 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-08-2019 9:23 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 543 of 652 (868144)
12-07-2019 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 533 by Tangle
12-07-2019 1:30 PM


Re: The Stories We Invent
Tangle writes:
Right so I can carry on sinning in heaven, can I?
the same way that you could choose to be disruptive in a club until they threw you out. The one right you won't have in heaven is the right to be there.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 533 by Tangle, posted 12-07-2019 1:30 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 548 by Tangle, posted 12-07-2019 4:10 PM Phat has replied
 Message 563 by ringo, posted 12-08-2019 1:28 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 544 of 652 (868145)
12-07-2019 3:30 PM
Reply to: Message 542 by Coragyps
12-07-2019 3:19 PM


Ceasing To Exist Some Day..Make Today Count
Just because you are a laconic pragmatic realist! Sheesh I suppose you think that this life is all you have and then you cease to exist. I'm just guessing.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 542 by Coragyps, posted 12-07-2019 3:19 PM Coragyps has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 546 by Coragyps, posted 12-07-2019 3:57 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 545 of 652 (868147)
12-07-2019 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 541 by Tangle
12-07-2019 3:18 PM


Re: The Stories We Invent
tangle writes:
So we suffer and die. Fabulous.
That sums up what science would conclude about human existence. Scientists are not philosophers though. I will ask you the same question I asked Coragyps.
Is this life all you think you have? Once you die does tangle the personality cease to exist?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 541 by Tangle, posted 12-07-2019 3:18 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 549 by Tangle, posted 12-07-2019 4:22 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 550 of 652 (868154)
12-07-2019 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 548 by Tangle
12-07-2019 4:10 PM


Re: The Stories We Invent
Hang on, I'm in paradise why would I want to be disruptive? Don't I have everything? Isn't everything perfect?
Of course. Some believe that free will exists in heaven--otherwise, 1/3 of the rebel angels would never have defected and gotten thrown out. We don't know if humans will have the same option. In general, nobody would want to cause ruckus or disruption in such a place except maybe cantankerous old rebels such as jar!
jar writes:
I cannot imagine a worse hell than sitting around singing praises for eternity. Puppy love is fine when you're a pre-teen but I have to believe that an afterlife must be something with a little more substance to it.
:. jar likes the idea of personal responsibility and an honor system. He dislikes getting your sins wiped away as if by magic.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 548 by Tangle, posted 12-07-2019 4:10 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 552 by Tangle, posted 12-07-2019 4:38 PM Phat has replied
 Message 564 by ringo, posted 12-08-2019 1:32 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 553 of 652 (868158)
12-07-2019 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 552 by Tangle
12-07-2019 4:38 PM


Re: The Stories We Invent
But anybody causing a ruckus would make me unhappy, so how does that work?
It makes you a liberal-minded person who believes that nobody needs to change in order to get accepted into Heaven. It won't be a democracy. Its more like a retirement home where you trust the caregiver. Granted we will likely have other tasks to learn and other jobs to do eventually.
You're making this up as you go along aren't you?
Yes. yes, I am. Nobody has any idea if Heaven or God exists at all. Those who believe are comfortable in their beliefs. The rest are likely more comfortable with the belief that humans will either live or die entirely on their own efforts.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 552 by Tangle, posted 12-07-2019 4:38 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 554 by Tangle, posted 12-07-2019 4:56 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 557 by GDR, posted 12-07-2019 7:55 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 565 by ringo, posted 12-08-2019 1:37 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 559 of 652 (868178)
12-08-2019 7:04 AM
Reply to: Message 558 by Tangle
12-08-2019 3:44 AM


Re: Our conscience
Tangle writes:
Still waiting on an answer for why god denies access to his still small voice in some of his creation.
I have yet to verify that this is true. Can you speak on behalf of one who has no conscience? You have a still small voice. You just call it yours. I still think that you and I dont understand each other on this topic.
You claim that there is no God. I claim that there is One. You then claim that if there were One, he would be evil, or disinterested, which is sorta the same thing.
I claim that God is good. So here we are, with the ball in my court and my answer being literally made up on the spot.
Im going with Kreeft. Message 525
Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.
Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.
Edited by Thugpreacha, : added Kreeft video, which I just now discovered.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 558 by Tangle, posted 12-08-2019 3:44 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 560 by Tangle, posted 12-08-2019 7:53 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 566 by ringo, posted 12-08-2019 1:42 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 592 of 652 (868355)
12-11-2019 8:41 AM
Reply to: Message 591 by Tangle
12-11-2019 3:50 AM


For a Believer, Prayerful Conversation Is The Only Way To Clarity
You still haven't told us why he would deny them that voice.
For a nonbeliever, none of this is a problem. Life is what it is. For believers, these sorts of questions cause strife in our conscience and internal world view. I believe that God does not simply make life comfortable for every single one of us. I also believe that there is a reasonable strategy behind why not. It isn't that God is simply cruel and arbitrary and uncaring. Humans are given other humans in need to offer us an opportunity to help them and become stronger ourselves through the process.
Sure it all seems cruel from your standpoint as if you were God and could imagine what YOUR response would be to human problems. But your empathy, while noble, cannot see the complexities of the vast whole. Believers trust that God can see it and that God is good. If you have any repulsive reaction to such a God, (hypothetically, then by all means vent. Talk. Pray. Otherwise, don't just criticize believers for embracing what you charge to be an unreasonable god. You cant judge our God if you yourself dont yell at Him once in awhile.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 591 by Tangle, posted 12-11-2019 3:50 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 593 by Theodoric, posted 12-11-2019 9:17 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 594 by Tangle, posted 12-11-2019 9:26 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 596 of 652 (868393)
12-11-2019 4:30 PM
Reply to: Message 594 by Tangle
12-11-2019 9:26 AM


Re: For a Believer, Prayerful Conversation Is The Only Way To Clarity
Im not certain that believers and unbelievers *see* the same thing. The obvious conclusion for me is that Jesus lives in my heart and soul. He never did before. What you call whacko I call obvious. In addition, the very fact that you call a lack of belief an obvious conclusion shows me the learned belief that rational thinking gave you.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 594 by Tangle, posted 12-11-2019 9:26 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 597 by Tangle, posted 12-11-2019 5:15 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 598 by ringo, posted 12-11-2019 5:26 PM Phat has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024