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Author Topic:   Christianity is Morally Bankrupt
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 580 of 652 (868273)
12-09-2019 6:03 PM
Reply to: Message 579 by GDR
12-09-2019 5:19 PM


Re: Our conscience
I suggest you re-read that link.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 579 by GDR, posted 12-09-2019 5:19 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 581 by GDR, posted 12-09-2019 6:35 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 583 of 652 (868282)
12-10-2019 4:09 AM
Reply to: Message 582 by GDR
12-09-2019 7:07 PM


Re: Our conscience
GDR writes:
Which of course also holds true for your beliefs.
I don't have any beliefs. Nothing I say is ever prefaced with I believe followed by some unevidenced nonsense that I've just made up.
That a psychopath has emotions like caring for and about another creature, however I agree that evidence isn't conclusive but they must have some feeling in regards to their pet.
It's not even evidence, let alone conclusive evidence. For all I know you just made it up. But even if true, it's got nothing to do with anything that we're discussing - of course they have 'feelings' what they lack is conscience - empathy - and there will be a scale of little to none.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 582 by GDR, posted 12-09-2019 7:07 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 586 by GDR, posted 12-10-2019 7:50 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 584 of 652 (868283)
12-10-2019 4:27 AM
Reply to: Message 581 by GDR
12-09-2019 6:35 PM


Re: Our conscience
GDR writes:
Here is a quote that covers basically the whole report.
That quote does not cover the whole report. It covers the bit that you think supports your view but it doesn't do that either. What it's saying is that in the people they've tested they've found brain activity that equates to empathy when certain activities that the experimenter does switch it on.
In normal conditions the psychopathic brain does not show that activity. In your language that means that the psychopath does not hear the 'still small voice of god' because the switch is set to off.
It's potentially good news that psychopaths may be conditioned by psychiatrists to 'manually' switch a switch that is automatic in most of us but that's modern medicine undoing god's poor work.
But the rest of the report suggests that it might be fruitless anyway.
quote:
Million-dollar question
Essi Viding from University College London, who was not involved with the study, said it was an extremely interesting finding, but that it remained unclear whether the psychopathic criminals' experience of empathy felt the same as that of the controls.
"It's dangerous to look at brain activation and say that it means they're empathising. They are able to generate a typical neural response, but that doesn't mean they have the same empathetic experience," Prof Viding told BBC News.
"We know they can generate the same response but they do that in an active and effortful way. Under free-viewing conditions they don't seem to. Just because they can empathise, doesn't mean they will.
"Psychopathic criminals are clearly different. The million-dollar question is whether we can devise therapeutic interventions that would shift them do this more automatically."

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 581 by GDR, posted 12-09-2019 6:35 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 587 by GDR, posted 12-10-2019 8:05 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 590 of 652 (868352)
12-11-2019 3:29 AM
Reply to: Message 586 by GDR
12-10-2019 7:50 PM


Re: Our conscience
GDR writes:
Do you believe that there is no god?
Haven't you learned anything here? Atheists just don't believe in god(s).
I don't believe that there are no god(s), I just don't have a belief in gods. Exactly like I don't have a belief in elves.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 586 by GDR, posted 12-10-2019 7:50 PM GDR has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 591 of 652 (868353)
12-11-2019 3:50 AM
Reply to: Message 587 by GDR
12-10-2019 8:05 PM


Re: Our conscience
GDR writes:
The point is that "they don't lack empathy". They do have that "still small voice" but it is by default switched off except that "under certain conditions", THEY have a switch to turn it on.
If your TV is switched off, does it still produce a picture? The TV doesn't lack the ability to receive a picture, someone external to the TV has to switch it on.
Yes, the experimenters were able to bring about the conditions but those conditions were also something they could encounter without the experimenters.
That's just wrong. They're called psychopaths because they don't hear this voice of yours. If they could, they would - the paper is telling you that their ability to empathise is switched off by default. They're now hopeful of finding ways to switch in on.
In your quote they even say that "even though they CAN empathise doesn't mean they will". I tend to think that you don't have to be a psychopath for that to be true.
He's saying that just because a bit of the brain of a psychopath that has had the intervention lights up in the same area as it does when normal people are shown the photograph and told to try to empathise, does not mean that they are actually feeling empathy. That is not known but it sounds hopeful that psychopaths might be able to taught to feel something.
But again, this doesn't help you, this is science trying to fix the creationist's error and meanwhile psychopaths can not hear the creationist's still small voice.
You still haven't told us why he would deny them that voice.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 587 by GDR, posted 12-10-2019 8:05 PM GDR has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 592 by Phat, posted 12-11-2019 8:41 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 594 of 652 (868363)
12-11-2019 9:26 AM
Reply to: Message 592 by Phat
12-11-2019 8:41 AM


Re: For a Believer, Prayerful Conversation Is The Only Way To Clarity
Phat writes:
For believers, these sorts of questions cause strife in our conscience and internal world view.
Good, that's the point of them - to make you think beyond the propaganda.
Sure it all seems cruel from your standpoint as if you were God and could imagine what YOUR response would be to human problems. But your empathy, while noble, cannot see the complexities of the vast whole. Believers trust that God can see it and that God is good.
You can't see any of this 'complexity' either. You just have a learned belief that won't let you draw the obvious conclusion. Either the god you believe in doesn't exist or he doesn't love you. God can not be both good and kill and torture you. Nor can those that can not hear him be capable of having this free will bunkum that religionists talk about.
All you are saying is 'I believe, I believe, don't trouble me with reality.'
Think for yourself Phat.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 592 by Phat, posted 12-11-2019 8:41 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 596 by Phat, posted 12-11-2019 4:30 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 597 of 652 (868397)
12-11-2019 5:15 PM
Reply to: Message 596 by Phat
12-11-2019 4:30 PM


Re: For a Believer, Prayerful Conversation Is The Only Way To Clarity
Phat writes:
Im not certain that believers and unbelievers *see* the same thing.
Of course they don't.
The obvious conclusion for me is that Jesus lives in my heart and soul. He never did before. What you call whacko I call obvious.
You might call it obvious, but it's obvious only to you and to me it's pure, meaningless drivel. You've been challenged to explain that mantra but you never, ever do.
In addition, the very fact that you call a lack of belief an obvious conclusion shows me the learned belief that rational thinking gave you.
And yet you can't attack the logic that leads to the conclusion.
I'm going to keep asking until you answer, how can the god that loves you also torture and kill you? How can your god withhold his voice from some people but not others
Attacking me does not answer the question - it's just a diversion from something you don't like to think about.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 596 by Phat, posted 12-11-2019 4:30 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 619 of 652 (868573)
12-14-2019 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 618 by Phat
12-14-2019 4:16 PM


Re: Assertions Regarding What We Do
Phat writes:
If Jesus Christ Himself came to EvC Forum, He would likely be mocked and rejected here.
He would be mocked if he spouted the drivel that you fundie Christians come up with by the yard.
But I suspect he'd come across as pretty decent guy, if a bit precious.
And of course he's got the miracles so he could prove his shit. Or not. Therefore no problem.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 618 by Phat, posted 12-14-2019 4:16 PM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 622 by jar, posted 12-14-2019 7:16 PM Tangle has not replied

  
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