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Author | Topic: Testing The Christian Apologists | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
You guys just want me to think--to use my mind. But look at what it has done for you. You are no longer believers. Why would I want that?
Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: A common pattern that I have observed from the Christians I associate with and believe the integrity of is that they studied and searched the scriptures a lot, studied other beliefs, and yet had one basic event in common:They never threw any of it away They felt a tug at their heart and soul...(which to you would be a red flag rather than an epiphany) and they finally surrendered to what they honestly felt to be a living Christ. A major change subsequently happened to them and all doubt was vanquished. You never understood the process (which may actually mean you were using full critical thinking skills) and never understood what it was that "tugged at your heart and soul" and what it meant for GOD to be alive, and what it meant that the character was not limited to the book. Thus you never allowed yourself to surrender and thus never felt any sort of epiphany. You seem to value sacred studies more than simply Jesus as the final answer. I respect though disagree with this only in that I believe Jesus is the final answer...its always good to study how the other folk believe. Add by edit: Perhaps what I describe as surrender is to you the sizzle without the steak. You likely believe that Christianity is a lifelong commitment to doing rather than a one time surrender. I appreciate your perspective, but I firmly believe in the initial surrender which is most definitely felt as a major change.You and ringo and others may argue that this change is an illusion. An easy solution. A release from responsibility rather than a commitment. But I don't think it has to be that way. And I don't think people can truly commune with GOD, God, Jesus or the Holy Spirit without it. But to those who are content with critically valuing all religions as equally valid and plausible, (at the same time in the same cultural space) relativism supersedes absolute truth. But there is no content in any of that Phat. There is no such thing as absolute truth, in the Bible or Christianity or Life or Morals or ...
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9197 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.2
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You are no longer believers.
I never really was. As a child I believed as a child believes, but as I became older I stopped believing in fantasy and the supernatural. As a rational human being I have never had a belief in a god like yours or any god or anything supernatural.Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
What's wrong with that? Did God give you a brain just to fill up the parking space by the door?
You guys just want me to think--to use my mind. Phat writes:
It prevents me from spewing the bullshit that you do? What's wrong with that?
But look at what it has done for you. Phat writes:
And you no longer believe in Santa Claus. What's wrong with that?
You are no longer believers. Phat writes:
Freedom from lies and stupidity? What's wrong with that? Why would I want that?"If you can keep your head when all about you Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...." -- Rudyard Kipling
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Phat writes: You guys just want me to think--to use my mind. And why wouldn't you want to do that? Your god gave you a mind, what do you use a mind for except for independent thought?
But look at what it has done for you. You are no longer believers. Why would I want that? Well that's a really interesting question. Can you answer it? Can you even begin to think about what it would be like not to have this burden of belief on your shoulders? Take the red pill. I'll give you one that only lasts a week so you don't need to worry about a permanent change to a better way of living.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8561 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
You know that usually doesn't work.
Reality is habit forming. Once you go red you never go back.Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined:
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You guys just want me to think--to use my mind. But look at what it has done for you. You are no longer believers. Why would I want that? Thugsy, why why why do you talk this way? Believing does not lead us to stop using our minds. Belief shows us things we wouldn't otherwise know about that's all, by believing the Biblical testimony in our case. "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen." Faith gives us a different kind of knowledge than observation of the physical world does, that's all, knowledge of the invisible worlds, but we can think about this knowledge the same way we think about physical knowledge. I wish you'd stop giving believers a bad name this way: we don't stop thinking. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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Faith writes: we don't stop thinking. You certainly don't stop thinking. You spending you time thinking up ridiculous scenarios to maintain an impossible believe in the face of overwhelming evidence. Poor old Phat spends his thinking time on contradictory, usually meaningless mystical waffle. What you both do is motivated thinking not critical thinking Motivated reasoning - WikipediaJe suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Phat often implies that thinking is at odds with belief and I'm saying it's not. Your opinion about what kind of thinking believers do isn't relevant. But basically we acquire knowledge of God and other "things unseen" by believing the Biblical witnesses, and we grow in knowledge of all these things by studying them.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Faith writes: Phat often implies that thinking is at odds with belief and I'm saying it's not. Your opinion about what kind of thinking believers do isn't relevant. Objective, critical thinking is always relevant. All other kinds are works of imagination.
But basically we acquire knowledge of God and other "things unseen" by believing the Biblical witnesses, and we grow in knowledge of all these things by studying them. You have no knowledge of god and there is nothing to study except the works of man.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I'mtalkingabout objective critical thinking.
You have no knowledge of god and there is nothing to study except the works of man. The amazing certainty with which you and others assert such emptyheaded irrational biases that have no evidence for them whatever is certainly impressive coming from someone who thinks he believes in scientific rational thought.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
I'm talking about objective critical thinking. No you're not, you're talking religious babble. When you state that where science shows something in the bible to be wrong you simply declare science wrong. Science is objective, critical thinking, declaring that if the bible says something is true then it must be, is the opposite of any kind of thinking. It's pure delusion.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
No. Objective critical thinking. You just get your head tied in knots when the ubject is omethijg beyond the senses but that's your own problem.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Faith writes: Objective critical thinking. It is impossible to be thinking critically and objectively if you declare that the bible is literally true and declare any objective evidence that falsifies it to be in error. What you do is the opposite of what critical thinking is and the reason that science has become the only test of reality that is useful.
You just get your head tied in knots when the ubject is omethijg beyond the senses but that's your own problem. Anything that is beyond our ability to sense it can not be objectively analysed. You can believe, dream, speculate, hypothesise, philosophise, whatever - but that is not a rational, objective, testable process. Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Faith writes: Tangle writes: You have no knowledge of god and there is nothing to study except the works of man. The amazing certainty with which you and others assert such emptyheaded irrational biases that have no evidence for them whatever is certainly impressive coming from someone who thinks he believes in scientific rational thought. Actually Faith, there is rather conclusive evidence to support Tangle's position and that evidence is the Bible as well as the whole host of Canons. The fact that there are many different Canons as well as the indisputable evidence of simple human origin to the stories included and excluded from the various Canons shows conclusively that it is an evolved collection of human generated stories. There is no evidence that can support any other conclusion.
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