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Author Topic:   Christianity is Morally Bankrupt
Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 599 of 652 (868455)
12-12-2019 3:09 PM
Reply to: Message 598 by ringo
12-11-2019 5:26 PM


Assertions Regarding What We Do
Then why is there no outward manifestation of Jesus "living in your heart"?
That's not a valid assertion for an internet forum. Neither of us knows if the other guy has any outward manifestation of Jesus in their heart. All that we have to go on is the words each of us writes here at this forum.
You have no idea what I do or do not do except for things I have shared here. Perhaps you should think about withdrawing your assertion and find another chink in my arguments.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 598 by ringo, posted 12-11-2019 5:26 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 600 by jar, posted 12-12-2019 3:21 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 601 by ringo, posted 12-13-2019 10:58 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 602 of 652 (868504)
12-13-2019 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 601 by ringo
12-13-2019 10:58 AM


Re: Assertions Regarding What We Do
jar writes:
It would help if you told us how to identify and test any outward manifestation of Jesus in their heart.
Thats my point. How can I test either you or ringo? Not necessarily that I care to...you both seem as if you do things in your respective communities to fight the good fight...either through spare change or taking out the neighbors garbage. I dont usually talk much here at EvC about what I do, but I assure you I dont just sit around griping about apologetics on the forum. My deeds are usually automatic and not something I keep track of.
ringo writes:
How much better do I know you who I've been talking to for fifteen years?
And yet never in 15 years have we actually hung out together. One of my friends who has no car asked for a ride to the Best Buy this morning. I could have been selfish and said no, but I routinely go that extra mile for people whom I know or who are in my community. Its not something I normally even bring up or need to bring up, but since you are always telling me I ignore the message, I am wondering what on earth you expect me to do above and beyond the stuff I normally do and the time I spend pontificating on this internet forum? Perhaps I set a bad example here...I certainly believe that some of our arguments here are faith killers for other lurkers who might just be seeking some hope in life. They too can see what we say every day for however many years they pay attention. Sometimes I think that all of us here at the forum need to weigh our words more carefully. Teaching people to be skeptical of Jesus Christ and to throw God away is hardly good advice, in my opinion. Then again, I sometimes get sarcastic and snippy with members such as Theodoric...but only because he does the same to me. Only people who knew us both could see the arguments in context. Sometimes I think he expects me to be a "professional moderator" rather than simply a ranting old man 100% of the time. Maybe he has a point, I dunno.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 601 by ringo, posted 12-13-2019 10:58 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 603 by ringo, posted 12-13-2019 11:40 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 604 by jar, posted 12-13-2019 11:52 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 605 of 652 (868524)
12-13-2019 3:01 PM
Reply to: Message 604 by jar
12-13-2019 11:52 AM


Re: Assertions Regarding What We Do
jar writes:
How do you identify an outward manifestation of Jesus in their heart?
Good question. At church, everybody puts on a face. Granted people don't try and fake it, but it is evident that the language and mannerisms change a bit inside the Sanctuary and on church grounds. This likely holds true more so for conservative charismatic churches. Liberal churches such as the Episcopalians likely act closer to the same no matter where they are, but then again, they don't have the responsibility of "acting saved".
There is something to that, however. I have noticed that "Born Again" people...that is, people who claim to actually know Jesus as opposed to knowing about Him seem to have a love of scripture, a love of church chat, (sanctified gossip) and sadly, often an air of superiority over the unsaved heathens at the football games and malls and country fairs with the kissing booths and all that the secular carnal people partake in without guilt or awareness.
Let's go deeper, though. There are some loving and giving selfless people in this world. They are few and far between but they are the ones who give unselfishly and often, go out of their way to help anyone and everyone that they come across, and do it with little pomp or desire to attract attention to themselves. They often have a warm glow about them. They look as if they are in love. I would say that they are in love with Jesus first, and people as a result. You could argue that these people don't have to profess any belief and that they just exist throughout all beliefs ad cultures. I would argue that they surely must know Jesus. You might argue that Jesus being alive or present does not really matter.
Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 604 by jar, posted 12-13-2019 11:52 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 606 by jar, posted 12-13-2019 4:35 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 610 by Theodoric, posted 12-13-2019 4:57 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 612 of 652 (868547)
12-14-2019 3:11 AM
Reply to: Message 609 by Theodoric
12-13-2019 4:56 PM


Re: Assertions Regarding What We Do
I am a bit conservative in my belief regarding the Holy Spirit. I don't believe that this Spirit is simply some kum-ba-yah feelgood altruism that flows through all beliefs and all people. I believe that the Holy Spirit is quite specific and quite exclusive. Inclusiveness does not apply here. Anyone who wants to know why has to understand that God, the Holy Spirit is not relativistic and compromising. All beliefs don't simply melt and blend together in some orgasmic feelgood fest. But I don't really know how I could explain it.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 609 by Theodoric, posted 12-13-2019 4:56 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 613 by Theodoric, posted 12-14-2019 12:33 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 614 by ringo, posted 12-14-2019 12:43 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18248
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 618 of 652 (868572)
12-14-2019 4:16 PM
Reply to: Message 615 by Faith
12-14-2019 3:29 PM


Re: Assertions Regarding What We Do
Faith writes:
I don't know why Thugsy continues to try to talk to you but maybe it's because he doesn't understand the topic well enough himself.
I can certainly learn more about "the topic" if I specifically know what this topic is. In regards to jar, one must remember his heretical views, to begin with.
  • He believes that everyone is essentially *saved* as the concept is understood among traditional historic Christianity. It's a bit Catholic of him. As you know, anyone who adheres to the rituals of the church and labels themself as a member magically becomes a member...no inner regeneration required! But of course, that is a weak argument. Our critics can rightly point to our (specifically the Christians here at EvC) behavior and say that our occasional outbursts and temper tantrums are highly suggestive of a lack of Spirit rather than an indwelling. All I can say to any of them is that they need look no further than the mirror to see similar examples of carnal manifestation. Theodoric doesn't even count in these discussions, for he lacks a belief, despite claims of scholarly investigation into scripture he has fallen for intellectual arguments from the mythicists as well as being somewhat liberally minded and contemptuous of Western Christianity in general. ringo also claims no belief in either the original source (GOD Himself) or of the messenger (Jesus Christ) except to adopt the words of the Bible into his secular humanist view of caring for his fellow humans in the push for global unity and social ideals which prohibit any one person from having the right to individual wealth.
    Granted, I am not as conservative as you are, and I can see the plausibility of such a communion among humanity, but I would emphasize that it would only work if the humans in question were transformed and renewed...rejuvenated through surrender and awareness of the Spirit of God.
    jar will follow this up by asking--yet again--what I even mean and calling my response "word salad". Don't let these arguments dissuade you. These guys know damn well what I mean and enjoy seeing me try and explain the obvious. Perhaps, however, since they obviously don't have this Spirit that they all have fallen for the counterfeit spirit of this new age...this kum ba yah, lovey-dovey inclusive unity which allows for diversity and for anyone and everyone to keep their own beliefs while essentially claiming that all should be alowed in heaven despite the rugged individualism. In conclusion, Faith all I can say is that yes, you and I both need to work on our surrender to the Living Spirit of God but that our opponents have far more work to do in surrendering their own minds. They likely won't do it...though once this world falls apart, which is going to likely happen in the next 20-30 years that they realize that just maybe the crazy Christians were on to something. God will draw all men unto Himself, but they will always have the freedom to resist such a pull.
    There are plenty of people whom I can help on a daily basis whom I don't have to argue with in order to get anywhere with them. meanwhile, the inclusive group will joyfully come together as one secular humanist world under the sway of a common spirit...little realizing that what they have is the spirit of the antichrist. If Jesus Christ Himself came to EvC Forum, He would likely be mocked and rejected here.
    Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
    "~Thugpreacha
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
    ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 615 by Faith, posted 12-14-2019 3:29 PM Faith has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 619 by Tangle, posted 12-14-2019 4:29 PM Phat has not replied
     Message 638 by ringo, posted 12-15-2019 1:37 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18248
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 639 of 652 (868629)
    12-15-2019 2:06 PM
    Reply to: Message 627 by jar
    12-14-2019 7:44 PM


    Re: Jesus was a party dude.
    So your position is that all of the stories were made up--some at earlier times and some at later times. I always maintain that the SOURCE is important, where you emphasize CONTENT. One would think that the SOURCE of inspiration for a story is somewhat relevant. Also, I see a MOTIVE or INTENTION to be equally useful.
    The Gospel of John is often criticized for being out of step with the theme of the other Gospels, but I see it as more fully developing a different side of Jesus. Do you believe that any part of the books was divinely inspired? Or would you then ask how we would even be able to test for that? You often are critical of Biblical Christianity, for it presupposes that many of its adherents have had an encounter with the divine and that everyone needs such an encounter. I don't readily agree with your idea that anyone can simply walk into a club and declare themselves a member. Transformation and sanctification are basic Biblical principles. Perhaps where we differ is that you might insist that we change ourselves through what we do, whereas I would say that by God's action of transforming a willing individual, that individual then has the capacity, passion, and direction to do good works.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
    "~Thugpreacha
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
    ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 627 by jar, posted 12-14-2019 7:44 PM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 640 by jar, posted 12-15-2019 3:52 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18248
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 641 of 652 (868632)
    12-15-2019 4:11 PM
    Reply to: Message 640 by jar
    12-15-2019 3:52 PM


    Phat Predicts The Future
    the Content can be identified and tested.
    Indeed. And the secular logic, reason, and reality will eventually teach people to eliminate the habit of accepting unevidenced beliefs. The Biblical Christians will be as the early Christians were...fighting the government. You (meaning the collective secular humanist voice) will advocate a cashless society due to convenience. You will insist that all churches be taxed. Effectively rendering unto Caesar that which is Caesars. The snake was right. Ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil will morph into "You shall be as Caesars(secular humanists with a common government) replacing religion with a secular state. The Biblical Christians will resist being under this control, though there will be few of them. I doubt I would have the guts to sever my umbilical cord from the state----its all I have. But If I see the need, I will pray for the strength to do it. You will mock religion and personal revelation from God. You will call it a fantasy and Biblical Christians will be mocked if they resist consensus with the humanist global authority.
    I predict tentatively that everything will fall apart (by this I mean the middle class in America will face poverty) as the rest of the world adapts the secular consensus and moves on to a future without religion except a fake inclusive one.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
    "~Thugpreacha
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
    ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 640 by jar, posted 12-15-2019 3:52 PM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 642 by jar, posted 12-15-2019 4:29 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18248
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 643 of 652 (868809)
    12-18-2019 4:53 PM
    Reply to: Message 642 by jar
    12-15-2019 4:29 PM


    Re: Phat Predicts The Future
    Yet the evidence shows that the middle class in almost other every secular nation is doing better, have better health care, longer lives, and happier people than the US of A.
    m All that does is reinforce my case that it likely will be the poor onetime middle class here in the US, many of them current Trump base, who will actually start WW IIIU because they can't stand a bunch of foreigners getting wealthy while the US suffers. I'm not saying it is very Christian of them, but people will do crazy things in order to survive.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
    "~Thugpreacha
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
    ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 642 by jar, posted 12-15-2019 4:29 PM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 644 by jar, posted 12-18-2019 5:10 PM Phat has not replied

      
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