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Author Topic:   Christianity is Morally Bankrupt
ringo
Member (Idle past 402 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 523 of 652 (868104)
12-07-2019 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 514 by Phat
12-06-2019 5:07 PM


Re: The purpose of it all
Phat writes:
The book was either totally written and imagined by humans struggling to understand the concept of God.
or
It was divinely inspired and the humans wrote down the spark to their limited intelligence at that time, in line with their culture.
False dichotomy. "The Book" is actually 66 books (and that's only in our preferred canon). Some of the books might be entirely made up and some might be dictated word for word by God. And some might be a mixture of both.
Phat writes:
ringo always dislikes the apologetic reference to spiritual death, which I commonly find while browsing.
Because the story doesn't say anything about "spiritual death". And the story ends with God preventing Adam and Eve from obtaining eternal life, so the context of the story is clearly about physical death. I'm still waiting for you to bring the apologetic arguments here. As long as you avoid doing that, it seems like there is no real argument - i.e. the conclusion is all made up.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 514 by Phat, posted 12-06-2019 5:07 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 525 by Phat, posted 12-07-2019 12:32 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 402 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 526 of 652 (868115)
12-07-2019 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 525 by Phat
12-07-2019 12:32 PM


Re: The purpose of it all
What's the difference between creating evil and creating the possibility of evil? If I give a four-year-old a loaded pistol, it's possible that evil will ensue but it's also possible that it won't. If evil does ensue, who's responsible? Obviously the one who made it possible.
The rest of that quote is just word-salad gibberish.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 525 by Phat, posted 12-07-2019 12:32 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 530 by Phat, posted 12-07-2019 1:17 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 402 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 562 of 652 (868190)
12-08-2019 1:20 PM
Reply to: Message 530 by Phat
12-07-2019 1:17 PM


Re: The purpose of it all
Phat writes:
Because simply creating evil makes God "complete" as jar asserts. I believe that God is good. Not good and evil.
That doesn't answer the question. Your quote said, "God created the possibility of evil; people actualized that potentiality." So what's the difference between God creating evil and God creating the possibility of evil? If there was no possibility of evil, there would be no evil.
Phat writes:
And once humans were given the knowledge...
Again, we weren't "given" knowledge. God didn't want us to have it, at least according to your twisted theology. We stole it.
Phat writes:
The Tree of knowledge is a mixed bag. We grew up and made many things. Some good and some bad. Would we have been better off choosing the other tree instead?
There was no choice offered.
Phat writes:
ringo writes:
If evil does ensue, who's responsible?
It depends on how mature and responsible one is.
Well, the one who gave a loaded gun to a four-year-old was neither mature nor responsible, was he?
Phat writes:
Evil was made possible only to give us a full choice.
But we don't have a full choice. Even if we accept the natural consequences of our actions, we're still judged by God. If we had a full choice, He'd mind His own damn business.
Phat writes:
The jury is still out as to whether we can do it fully without Jesus needing to come back bodily.
You should stop saying, "the jury is out." It isn't.
Phat writes:
The other guy certainly continues to market his agenda.
There is no "other guy" - and there is no Jesus. It's just us.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 530 by Phat, posted 12-07-2019 1:17 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 402 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 563 of 652 (868191)
12-08-2019 1:28 PM
Reply to: Message 543 by Phat
12-07-2019 3:28 PM


Re: The Stories We Invent
Phat writes:
The one right you won't have in heaven is the right to be there.
You mean you can get kicked out of heaven? Is that what you call "mainstream" theology?

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 543 by Phat, posted 12-07-2019 3:28 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 402 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 564 of 652 (868193)
12-08-2019 1:32 PM
Reply to: Message 550 by Phat
12-07-2019 4:24 PM


Re: The Stories We Invent
Phat writes:
... otherwise, 1/3 of the rebel angels would never have defected and gotten thrown out.
Isn't it clear to you that whoever wrote that story had a very low opinion of God? Even earthly politicians sometimes get a better than 2/3 approval rating. Heaven must not be a very desirable place with that many dissenters.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 550 by Phat, posted 12-07-2019 4:24 PM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 402 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 565 of 652 (868194)
12-08-2019 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 553 by Phat
12-07-2019 4:50 PM


Re: The Stories We Invent
Phat writes:
It makes you a liberal-minded person who believes that nobody needs to change in order to get accepted into Heaven.
I have to ask again, why is it that professing Christians are often less "changed" than the average person?
Phat writes:
It won't be a democracy. Its more like a retirement home where you trust the caregiver.
You make it sound worse and worse.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 553 by Phat, posted 12-07-2019 4:50 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 402 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 566 of 652 (868195)
12-08-2019 1:42 PM
Reply to: Message 559 by Phat
12-08-2019 7:04 AM


Re: Our conscience
Phat writes:
You have a still small voice. You just call it yours.
You might want to look up what the Bible actually says about a "still small voice." Hint: it isn't about conscience.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 559 by Phat, posted 12-08-2019 7:04 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 402 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 598 of 652 (868398)
12-11-2019 5:26 PM
Reply to: Message 596 by Phat
12-11-2019 4:30 PM


Re: For a Believer, Prayerful Conversation Is The Only Way To Clarity
Phat writes:
The obvious conclusion for me is that Jesus lives in my heart and soul. He never did before.
Then why is there no outward manifestation of Jesus "living in your heart"?

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 596 by Phat, posted 12-11-2019 4:30 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 599 by Phat, posted 12-12-2019 3:09 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 402 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 601 of 652 (868502)
12-13-2019 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 599 by Phat
12-12-2019 3:09 PM


Re: Assertions Regarding What We Do
Phat writes:
Neither of us knows if the other guy has any outward manifestation of Jesus in their heart.
Sure we do. We know you as well as we know anybody that we talk to on a daily basis, more so because we know you're coming back tomorrow with a reply. I can talk to somebody at the bus stop for two minutes and know he's a conservative idiot. How much better do I know you who I've been talking to for fifteen years?
Phat writes:
All that we have to go on is the words each of us writes here at this forum.
That would only be a problem if your words were insincere.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 599 by Phat, posted 12-12-2019 3:09 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 602 by Phat, posted 12-13-2019 11:23 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 402 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 603 of 652 (868508)
12-13-2019 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 602 by Phat
12-13-2019 11:23 AM


Re: Assertions Regarding What We Do
Phat writes:
And yet never in 15 years have we actually hung out together.
What would that add?
Are you suggesting that two blind people who have spoken to each other every day for fifteen years don't "know" each other because they've never seen each other face to face?
Phat writes:
... I am wondering what on earth you expect me to do above and beyond the stuff I normally do....
I'm not expecting anything of you. I'm saying that there's nothing to indicate that you're different from most non-believers. the fruit is the same.
Phat writes:
I certainly believe that some of our arguments here are faith killers for other lurkers who might just be seeking some hope in life.
I hope so. Freedom of thought is better than false hope.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 602 by Phat, posted 12-13-2019 11:23 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 402 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(2)
Message 614 of 652 (868561)
12-14-2019 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 612 by Phat
12-14-2019 3:11 AM


Re: Assertions Regarding What We Do
Phat writes:
I believe that the Holy Spirit is quite specific and quite exclusive. Inclusiveness does not apply here.
And it conveniently includes you.
Phat writes:
Anyone who wants to know why has to understand that God, the Holy Spirit is not relativistic and compromising.
Luckily for you, He thinks exactly the way you do.
A cynic might think you made Him up, tailored perfectly to suit you.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 612 by Phat, posted 12-14-2019 3:11 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 615 by Faith, posted 12-14-2019 3:29 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 402 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 637 of 652 (868624)
12-15-2019 1:28 PM
Reply to: Message 615 by Faith
12-14-2019 3:29 PM


Re: Assertions Regarding What We Do
Faith writes:
Here yhou are trtying to make Christian doctrine, specifically the Holy Spirit, out to be his own personal invention.
I said, "A cynic might think you made Him up, tailored perfectly to suit you." I was referring to the fact that "Christian doctrine", as espoused by Phat, just happens by sheer coincidence apparently, to correspond exactly with what Phat wants to hear. You disagree with Phat's take often enough yourself, so you really have nothing to criticize here.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 615 by Faith, posted 12-14-2019 3:29 PM Faith has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 402 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 638 of 652 (868626)
12-15-2019 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 618 by Phat
12-14-2019 4:16 PM


Re: Assertions Regarding What We Do
Phat writes:
ringo also claims no belief in either the original source (GOD Himself) or of the messenger (Jesus Christ) except to adopt the words of the Bible into his secular humanist view of caring for his fellow humans...
All I've said is that the Bible happens to get it right in some cases. The same secular humanist view is obvious to almost every religion as well as to secular humanists. Hence, it has nothing to do with the Bible or Jesus.
Phat writes:
... in the push for global unity and social ideals which prohibit any one person from having the right to individual wealth.
Stop lying about me. I have never said a word about "global unity" or denying people the right to individual wealth. Why don't you read what I write instead of listening to what your right-wing idols say I think?
It was Jesus who told you to take up your cross daily and follow Him. He did not say you could follow him by sitting at home on your individual wealth.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 618 by Phat, posted 12-14-2019 4:16 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
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