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Author Topic:   Christianity is Morally Bankrupt
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 572 of 652 (868217)
12-08-2019 10:11 PM
Reply to: Message 570 by Hyroglyphx
12-08-2019 7:55 PM


Re: Biblical Predestination
In a certain sense God's actions are predetermined just as ours are. In a sense He is synonymous with His Moral Law. The Law judges inexorably, it can only judge according to its own character, God can only act according to His own character always. He can only do the absolutely exactly perfectly righteous thing in response to everything that is done in His Creation. This is why He sent Jesus to die for us: because that is the absolutely exactly perfectly righteous thing to do given our situation. We have NO ability to understand this, we do not have the ability to see or understand all the multiplicitous actions that have to be taken into account in judging anything at all.
Predestination is just a way this inexorable character is worked out in the Creation, in our own lives. Shanges occur all the time from our point of view, and we personally make changes, we come to new conclusions, all that is predestined but we cannot see how. Jesus died for our sins, but conditions must be met for that, when they are met we are saved. Repentance is not the onbly condition, we mut recognize Jesus as God and recognize that His death on the cross is what saves us. Judas repented, he had remorse for accusing an innocent man but that's all we know. Those things in themselves aren't enough for salvation.
But again the problem with this kind of discussion is that we can't help imputing to God our own thoughts and understanding, and when we criticize or judge Him by our own standards we are being arrogant to a degree that ought to frighten us because God is our judge, we are not His. God says in scripture that we think He is like us but He is not like us, He is so far above us we can't even begin to imagine it. When scripture says "The beginning of wisdom is fear of the Lord" it means we need to recognized how our sins bring God's judgment on us.
As for Judas Jesus sought out one who had the character that would betray Him. Judging the Creator God is a risky thing to do. As I say the conditions given for salvation are not met by those ascribed to Judas and that's all we know. The rest we should leave to God in fear and trembling.
I note that on your message against Percy's use of censorship as forum discipline, for which I thank you since I've been its primary target, you add "Hail S....."* and that sets my teeth on edge for you. I guess when you gave up your Christian belief you gave it up in spades. I'm sorry.
* I guess maybe I'm being superstitious but I just don't want to put that phrase into print.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 570 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-08-2019 7:55 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 573 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-08-2019 11:24 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(2)
Message 575 of 652 (868230)
12-09-2019 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 573 by Hyroglyphx
12-08-2019 11:24 PM


Re: Biblical Predestination
I was just messing around with that last tidbit. F*** Satan!!! And all legions of demons with him
OK, thanks, I'm relieved. Now, howzabout doing something about the glaring statement on the asterisks discussion post, like maybe censor it with some asterisks?

This message is a reply to:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 615 of 652 (868566)
12-14-2019 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 614 by ringo
12-14-2019 12:43 PM


Re: Assertions Regarding What We Do
I don't know why Thugsy continues to try to talk to you but maybe it's because he doesn't understand the topic well enough himself. Here yhou are trtying to make Christian doctrine, specifically the Holy Spirit, out to be his own personal invention. That's crap. Nobody should listen to you for half a second.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 614 by ringo, posted 12-14-2019 12:43 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 616 by jar, posted 12-14-2019 3:35 PM Faith has replied
 Message 618 by Phat, posted 12-14-2019 4:16 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 637 by ringo, posted 12-15-2019 1:28 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 617 of 652 (868569)
12-14-2019 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 616 by jar
12-14-2019 3:35 PM


Re: Again, basics of Chritian Doctrine Faith, basics!
It's got hundreds of Biblical references in support of it which I've posted hdere many times and I'm sure you've seen them so I won't bother posting them again. And the entire history of Christianity has always affirmed it. The Holy Spirit is amply testified in the New Testament, your historical understanding is a tad lacking.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 616 by jar, posted 12-14-2019 3:35 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 620 by jar, posted 12-14-2019 7:13 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 621 of 652 (868587)
12-14-2019 7:15 PM
Reply to: Message 620 by jar
12-14-2019 7:13 PM


Re: Again, basics of Chritian Doctrine Faith, basics!
Oh nonsense, what "fact" are you talking about, you aren't even offering some proof of it. Sorry, the fact is that the doctrine of the Holy Spirit is easily established biblically and that's the bottom line.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 620 by jar, posted 12-14-2019 7:13 PM jar has replied

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 Message 624 by jar, posted 12-14-2019 7:21 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 623 of 652 (868589)
12-14-2019 7:18 PM
Reply to: Message 622 by jar
12-14-2019 7:16 PM


Re: Jesus was a party dude.
Except obviously the writer who reported it and others such as His mother knew. And even those who didn't know at first no doubt found out.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 622 by jar, posted 12-14-2019 7:16 PM jar has replied

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 Message 625 by jar, posted 12-14-2019 7:23 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 626 of 652 (868593)
12-14-2019 7:36 PM
Reply to: Message 625 by jar
12-14-2019 7:23 PM


Re: Jesus was a party dude.
But the writer knew. And if the writer knew others knew.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 625 by jar, posted 12-14-2019 7:23 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 627 by jar, posted 12-14-2019 7:44 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 628 of 652 (868597)
12-14-2019 7:57 PM
Reply to: Message 627 by jar
12-14-2019 7:44 PM


Re: Jesus was a party dude.
No, others contemporary with the writer knew if the writer knew.
John says at the end of his gospel that he recorded the miracles specifically for the purpose of leading people to believe in Jesus. Jesus did in many cases tell people not to report them but they did report them anyway. And what point are you trying to make anyway? Not taking credit for them means He gave the credit to God and He also claims to be God.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 629 of 652 (868598)
12-14-2019 8:07 PM
Reply to: Message 624 by jar
12-14-2019 7:21 PM


Re: Again, basics of Chritian Doctrine Faith, basics!
What Tertullian did was show that the doctrine is in the Bible. This is what many of the early apologists did, such as Athanasius. The fact that many objected just shows the need for him to spell it out because it is clearly in the Bible, he just had to draw it out and teach it. It had to be defended against heretics and that's what those apologists had the task of doing. So he spelled it out in much more detail to establish it in the theological record. It's perfectly silly to think the idea originated with Tertullian. The Creeds incorporated doctrines when it had become necessary for the congregations to learn them after they'd been challenged by heretics.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 624 by jar, posted 12-14-2019 7:21 PM jar has replied

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 Message 630 by jar, posted 12-14-2019 8:17 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 631 of 652 (868600)
12-14-2019 8:29 PM
Reply to: Message 630 by jar
12-14-2019 8:17 PM


Re: Again, basics of Chritian Doctrine Faith, basics!
They had no reason to invent the Holy Spirit, their whole motivation was to show those ignorant of the Biblical record the truth of the Trinity, which involved defining Jesus as the Divine Son of God first, based on the Biblical references, and the Holy Spirit as biblically both God and separate Person. It's all in the Bible, their job was to show it for the sake of those of us who don't read the Bible as deeply as they did. The non Trinitarians are wrong, and you should learn that yourself.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 630 by jar, posted 12-14-2019 8:17 PM jar has replied

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 632 of 652 (868601)
12-14-2019 8:42 PM
Reply to: Message 630 by jar
12-14-2019 8:17 PM


Showing the Doctrine of the Trinity in the Bible
Here's the doctrine of the Trinity from Blue Letter Bible again, which I'v posted many times before. It's a matter of learning all the separate biblical references since it is not spelled out in one place. So it shows that God is One, and then it shows that the Father is God, the Son is God and the Holy Spirit is God, all from scripture references. Then it shows that the Father is a separate Person from the Son and Holy Spirit, the Son is a separate Person from the Father and the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is a separate Person from the Father and the Son. Three separate Persons, each of whom has the attributes of God. This is how the Trinity is shown from the Bible to be "One God in Three Persons." Ttrying to understand this without studying the relevant scriptures will get you nowhere.
Here's the Blue Letter Bible study of the Doctrine of the Trinity
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 630 by jar, posted 12-14-2019 8:17 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 634 by jar, posted 12-14-2019 9:21 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 635 of 652 (868606)
12-14-2019 9:33 PM
Reply to: Message 634 by jar
12-14-2019 9:21 PM


Re: Showing the Doctrine of the Trinity in the Bible
How could there be any "desired conclusion?" That's idiculous. Not to mention that just happening to find all those parts that together add up to some "desired" conclusion would be impossible, nay -- since they were found --miraculous.
No, it's DISCOVERING in the scriptures that certain facts are there that together add up to the Trinity. It's there and they discovered it's there, nobody had any reason to want it to be there, it's just there.
Nothing will ever be "universally" accepted. There will always be heretics and apostates. But the doctrine is biblically incontrovertible for those who have an "ear to hear," not to mention an eye to see and a mind to understand what the Bible shows.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 634 by jar, posted 12-14-2019 9:21 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 636 by jar, posted 12-15-2019 8:33 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 645 of 652 (868820)
12-18-2019 6:09 PM
Reply to: Message 636 by jar
12-15-2019 8:33 AM


Re: Showing the Doctrine of the Trinity in the Bible
I never desired any conclusion at all. The Theologians did a good job of arguing for inerrancy and it makes sense, and that is that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 636 by jar, posted 12-15-2019 8:33 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 646 by jar, posted 12-18-2019 7:11 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 647 of 652 (868824)
12-18-2019 7:45 PM
Reply to: Message 646 by jar
12-18-2019 7:11 PM


Re: Showing the Doctrine of the Trinity in the Bible
The fantasy Bible is the one you create in your mind, and ringo creates his own as well, along with many others here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 646 by jar, posted 12-18-2019 7:11 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 648 by jar, posted 12-18-2019 8:02 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1435 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 649 of 652 (868829)
12-18-2019 8:37 PM
Reply to: Message 648 by jar
12-18-2019 8:02 PM


Re: Showing the Doctrine of the Trinity in the Bible
I know it is true, I would not have said it if I did not mean it, and stop telling me what I think, I know what I think and I say what I think and stop it already.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 648 by jar, posted 12-18-2019 8:02 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 650 by jar, posted 12-18-2019 8:42 PM Faith has replied

  
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