|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total) |
| |
popoi | |
Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 13/17 Hour: 0/0 |
Thread ▼ Details |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: Police Shootings | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Percy Member Posts: 22392 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
Tangle writes: I give up, you've totally lost the plot. I'm just following the evidence where it leads. Much of what others have claimed is not supported by the evidence.
To summarise. A terrorist wearing a suicide belt (that turned out to be fake) murdered two people and attempted to murder more. Civilians intervened armed police were called to the incident, they were told that the murderers was wearing a suicide belt, they saw the belt so they shot him dead. This is a good example of a claim unsupported by evidence. How is this consistent with shooting the suspect in the same area of the body as the suicide belt, especially with people and busses just a few lanes of bridge away from him should the belt explode? And here again is the video positioned where the suspect is rolling around in pain on the ground while police continue to shoot him (also shows how close people were to him):
How do you justify this? --Percy
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9489 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.9
|
Percy writes:
He was a terrorist that had murdered two people and was actively trying to murder still more. How do you justify this? There will be a detailed inquest, the police are covered by the same law of reasonable force as I am. Our criminal justice system is very robust, if it was an unlawful killing, we'll find out. Meanwhile the people that put their lives at risk by running towards harm to protect us deserve our support, not condemnation as executioners.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
caffeine Member (Idle past 1024 days) Posts: 1800 From: Prague, Czech Republic Joined: |
There will be a detailed inquest, the police are covered by the same law of reasonable force as I am. Our criminal justice system is very robust, if it was an unlawful killing, we'll find out. While on the whole I agree that Percy is clutching at straws in a stubborn refusal to accept that a police shooting can be justified, the above is childishly naive. How many British police have been successfully convicted for murdering someone? I'll give you a clue - it's less than one. If you think every shooting in the history of the British police force was A-OK then I have a bridge you might be interested in.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Hyroglyphx Inactive Member |
How do you justify this? I think that has been sufficiently answered at this point. "Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Percy writes:
What they "knew" is the same as what they were thinking.
You said there was no point in speculating about what they were thinking, but their thinking isn't what I was speculating about. I was speculating about what they knew. Percy writes:
That's exactly the point. They didn't know the bomb was a fake until they subdued him. They subdued him by killing him. If after subduing him they knew it was fake, why did they kill an unarmed man?"If you can keep your head when all about you Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...." -- Rudyard Kipling
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Hyroglyphx Inactive Member
|
[ Content removed to protect privacy. --Admin ]
Edited by Hyroglyphx, : No reason given. Edited by Admin, : Remove content."Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9489 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
Caffeine writes: How many British police have been successfully convicted for murdering someone? I'll give you a clue - it's less than one. If you think every shooting in the history of the British police force was A-OK then I have a bridge you might be interested in. I have a lot of faith in our criminal justice system - it's man made so it has flaws but it's pretty much the best there is. If we ask our police to defend us from fundamentalist lunatics that want to kill as many people as they can, as quickly as they can, we have to live with them taking actions like this and support them when they do - until it's proven wrong.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
caffeine Member (Idle past 1024 days) Posts: 1800 From: Prague, Czech Republic Joined: |
I have a lot of faith in our criminal justice system - it's man made so it has flaws but it's pretty much the best there is. If we ask our police to defend us from fundamentalist lunatics that want to kill as many people as they can, as quickly as they can, we have to live with them taking actions like this and support them when they do - until it's proven wrong. I have no qualms about police action in this case, I'm concerned about your belief that if they'd done something wrong that would somehow magically be revealed. Two things seem clear to me: 1. The police in Britain are essentially immune from prosecution for their actions. This one is clear from results; but in fairness could be explained by the police in Britain never abusing their power. However other things are clear to me 2. The police in Britain regularly abuse their power. This is based on personal experience so I don't expect you to believe it, but it's intended more to explain my thinking. Maybe I should try and make this argument better when sober. Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Fix quote box.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9489 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
caffeine writes: Two things seem clear to me: 1. The police in Britain are essentially immune from prosecution for their actions. This one is clear from results; but in fairness could be explained by the police in Britain never abusing their power. Quite obviously they are not - they are subject to the same laws as all of us and the prosecution and legal system are independent. But of course there are instances of police abusing power and being downright criminal.
However other things are clear to me 2. The police in Britain regularly abuse their power. This is based on personal experience so I don't expect you to believe it, but it's intended more to explain my thinking. I'm sure these things happen, but I don't believe that our criminal justice system is institutionally corrupt.
Maybe I should try and make this argument better when sober. Maybe :-)Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Percy Member Posts: 22392 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
Tangle writes: Percy writes:
He was a terrorist that had murdered two people and was actively trying to murder still more. How do you justify this? I don't understand why you continue repeating these untrue statements. At the time the suspect was killed only one had died, and unless communication between the EMTs and the police on the bridge was very fast and very efficient, the police didn't know anyone had died at all. And he wasn't actively trying to murder anyone at the time he was killed. He was disarmed and had a pile of passersby atop him. And the police obviously didn't believe he was wearing a suicide belt or vest no matter what Crilly yelled because they fired into the suspect's chest and abdomen, precisely where a suicide belt or vest would be. And this video that you keep ignoring shows the suspect rolling around on the ground in pain and no threat to anyone while police continue to shoot him. The video is, again, pre-positioned at the exact right spot:
There will be a detailed inquest, the police are covered by the same law of reasonable force as I am. Our criminal justice system is very robust, if it was an unlawful killing, we'll find out. No one is arguing that it was an unlawful killing. Is that why you're repeating the same false arguments, because you're upset that I'm arguing the killing was unlawful? Well I'm not, and I don't know where you got that idea. My argument is that the killing was unnecessary, and that if it followed all relevant policies, procedures and training then those should be changed. Yes, there will be an inquest. As I posted earlier, I periodically (like every few months) check the incidents I've posted about here to see if there have been any recent developments. When the results of the inquest come out I'll know about it.
Meanwhile the people that put their lives at risk by running towards harm to protect us deserve our support, not condemnation as executioners. Ah, so that's the problem, you didn't like it being called an execution. You see use of that word as an attack on the police. Well, it is, in a way, but not on the police on the bridge. I'm sure they were only following protocols and orders. It's the police as an entire department or institution that I blame, because they're responsible for developing the current policies, procedures and training, and so they are responsible for the execution. So there's no need to go all "keep throwing up the same debunked objections again and again while not addressing any arguments made or evidence presented" on me. I'm sorry you don't like the term execution, but keep things rational and factual, will you please? The current message subtitle of "Unarmed Police Does Work" isn't right for what we're discussing now, so I've changed it. --Percy
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Percy Member Posts: 22392 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
caffeine writes: While on the whole I agree that Percy is clutching at straws in a stubborn refusal to accept that a police shooting can be justified, the above is childishly naive. That police shootings are never justified is not my position. My position is that many police shootings are unjustified, and that in this particular instance killing the suspect was unnecessary. Besides taking a human life unnecessarily, they also lost the primary information source.
How many British police have been successfully convicted for murdering someone? I'll give you a clue - it's less than one. Really? Wow! I'd guess that Britain has many, many fewer police killings than the US, so we can't compare numbers. We have around a thousand police killings per year, and I'd guess that less than 0.01% result in convictions. According to Wikipedia only 19 police officers have been convicted of murder (Category:American police officers convicted of murder - Wikipedia), but it doesn't say what time period that covers. By not mentioning a time period it implies that that's the total since the founding of the nation, but that number feels way too small for 230 years, so I'm not going to consider that number reliable. --Percy
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Percy Member Posts: 22392 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
Hyroglyphx writes: How do you justify this?
I think that has been sufficiently answered at this point. Not actually. Avoidance like this or false answers have been the common response. Here's the video again pre-positioned to where the suspect is rolling around in pain on the ground unarmed:
How do you justify killing this man? --Percy
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Percy Member Posts: 22392 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
ringo writes: Percy writes:
What they "knew" is the same as what they were thinking. You said there was no point in speculating about what they were thinking, but their thinking isn't what I was speculating about. I was speculating about what they knew. People can think many things they don't know. Knowing through observation or through informing oneself by other means is not the same as thinking, which can include opinions and imaginary things and speculations and so forth.
Percy writes:
That's exactly the point. They didn't know the bomb was a fake until they subdued him. They subdued him by killing him. If after subduing him they knew it was fake, why did they kill an unarmed man? If they didn't know the bomb was fake, why did they fire into his chest and abdomen where the bomb was? Either they knew the bomb was fake, or they didn't even know he was wearing a fake bomb. --Percy
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9489 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
Percy writes: I don't understand why you continue repeating these untrue statements. And I don't understand why you can't see that this was a terrorist that had knifed two people - killing both of them - was wearing a (fake) suicide vest and attempting to kill as many more people as he could on the same bridge as one of his compatriots had killed 8 people only 2 years earlier.
At the time the suspect was killed only one had died, and unless communication between the EMTs and the police on the bridge was very fast and very efficient, the police didn't know anyone had died at all. Oh, really? Only one had died so far, well that changes everything. Ffs. Even if they didn't know anyone had died, please show how this matters. Sorry, I'm too angry to read the rest of your armchair crap. This was a terrorist attack in central London - like several before - that by the intervention of some heroic civilians and by very prompt actions by the police saved a lot of lives. I'll wait for the inquest to find the facts.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
DrJones* Member Posts: 2284 From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 6.8
|
How do you justify killing this man?
he attacked multiple people and was wearing a suicide vest, he was an threat to the lives and safety of others.It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds soon I discovered that this rock thing was true Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world And so there was only one thing I could do Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On *not an actual doctor
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024