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Author Topic:   Police Shootings
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 463 of 670 (868582)
12-14-2019 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 455 by ringo
12-13-2019 10:51 AM


Re: Unarmed Police Does Work
ringo writes:
Percy writes:
You said there was no point in speculating about what they were thinking, but their thinking isn't what I was speculating about. I was speculating about what they knew.
What they "knew" is the same as what they were thinking.
People can think many things they don't know. Knowing through observation or through informing oneself by other means is not the same as thinking, which can include opinions and imaginary things and speculations and so forth.
Percy writes:
If after subduing him they knew it was fake, why did they kill an unarmed man?
That's exactly the point. They didn't know the bomb was a fake until they subdued him. They subdued him by killing him.
If they didn't know the bomb was fake, why did they fire into his chest and abdomen where the bomb was? Either they knew the bomb was fake, or they didn't even know he was wearing a fake bomb.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 455 by ringo, posted 12-13-2019 10:51 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 467 by ringo, posted 12-15-2019 1:45 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 466 of 670 (868602)
12-14-2019 8:51 PM
Reply to: Message 456 by Hyroglyphx
12-13-2019 11:19 AM


[ Content removed to protect privacy. --Admin ]
Edited by Percy, : Content removed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 456 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-13-2019 11:19 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 473 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-15-2019 9:52 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 468 of 670 (868640)
12-15-2019 7:14 PM
Reply to: Message 456 by Hyroglyphx
12-13-2019 11:19 AM


[ Content removed to protect privacy. --Admin ]
Edited by Percy, : Content removed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 456 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-13-2019 11:19 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 469 of 670 (868643)
12-15-2019 7:49 PM
Reply to: Message 457 by Tangle
12-13-2019 11:24 AM


Re: Unarmed Police Does Work
Tangle writes:
I have a lot of faith in our criminal justice system - it's man made so it has flaws but it's pretty much the best there is.
I think that a criminal justice system that makes it well nigh impossible to prosecute police who commit murder in the course of duty is typical, maybe even, as you say, the best there is, but it certainly isn't the best we can do.
But I don't know that zero police convictions in the UK is indicative of anything because most of your police are unarmed, so I'm guessing that there's a very tiny sample size, that incidents involving armed police units must be a tiny percentage of all incidents.
If we ask our police to defend us from fundamentalist lunatics that want to kill as many people as they can, as quickly as they can, we have to live with them taking actions like this and support them when they do - until it's proven wrong.
At a minimum, the publicly available evidence at least calls the propriety into question.
Inevitably the outcomes are going to be mixed bag. The best you can hope for is a set of policies that minimize the total number of deaths. Also inevitably, some of those killed will be innocent people at the hands of police. Perfection isn't possible. But if it's okay to shoot unarmed wounded people rolling around on the ground in pain because you think they're a terrorist and a murderer and a suicide bomber, sometimes what you think is going to be wrong.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 457 by Tangle, posted 12-13-2019 11:24 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 470 of 670 (868644)
12-15-2019 8:35 PM
Reply to: Message 464 by Tangle
12-14-2019 5:44 PM


Re: Police Should Not Kill Unnecessarily
Tangle writes:
Percy writes:
I don't understand why you continue repeating these untrue statements.
And I don't understand why you can't see that this was a terrorist that had knifed two people - killing both of them - was wearing a (fake) suicide vest and attempting to kill as many more people as he could on the same bridge as one of his compatriots had killed 8 people only 2 years earlier.
This isn't an accurate summary of anything I've said, and I don't understand why you keep doing this.
At the time the suspect was killed only one had died, and unless communication between the EMTs and the police on the bridge was very fast and very efficient, the police didn't know anyone had died at all.
Oh, really? Only one had died so far, well that changes everything. Ffs. Even if they didn't know anyone had died, please show how this matters.
You said that the police were justified in killing the suspect because he was a terrorist who had already killed two people, but at the time they made the decision to kill the suspect the police did not know he was a terrorist or that he had killed anyone. So since they didn't know these things, what were their reasons for deciding to kill him?
Sorry, I'm too angry to read the rest of your armchair crap.
The emotionality's been apparent from the lack of attention to known facts.
This was a terrorist attack in central London - like several before - that by the intervention of some heroic civilians and by very prompt actions by the police saved a lot of lives.
Civilian intervention saved lives. The armed police just showed up at the end, pulled off the passersby, and shot the suspect dead.
I'll wait for the inquest to find the facts.
Sure, but that's no excuse for castigating those noting the questions the videos do manage to raise.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 464 by Tangle, posted 12-14-2019 5:44 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 471 of 670 (868646)
12-15-2019 9:05 PM
Reply to: Message 465 by DrJones*
12-14-2019 6:53 PM


Re: Unarmed Police Does Work
DrJones* writes:
How do you justify killing this man?
he attacked multiple people and was wearing a suicide vest, he was an threat to the lives and safety of others.
These objections are not new, have in fact been repeated many times and continue to be repeated despite having been rebutted and debunked many times. The suspect was unarmed, defenseless, and at the bottom of a pile of passersby. And the police could not possibly have believed he was wearing a suicide vest else they would not have shot him in the chest and abdomen.
Possibly there are good reasons for shooting the suspect, but no one's offering any. People have instead been repeating the same bad reasons over and over.
One good reason I can think of might be that once the last passersby had been pulled off the suspect that the police could not be sure he was unarmed, that he might have perhaps been carrying more knives somewhere on his person, so when he attempted to rise from the ground, and possibly disobeying orders the police may have given to stay down, they were forced to shoot him.
The videos also raise questions, but the objections to the interpretations I've raised have been so many and so superficial that I haven't had a chance to mention them, but let me mention one now. In one video the police are positioned at very close range, maybe seven feet or so. Did they shoot him once the last passerby was clear? You can't tell from the portion of the video that's been made public. But in another shot the police are aiming at the suspect from about a hundred feet away. Why did they move away? Was it because they suspected a suicide belt? That would make sense, but then why did they fire into his chest and abdomen?
Even for sharpshooters, firing at a distance of a hundred feet straight across a bridge in the middle of a metropolitan area seems very ill advised, so a possible explanation is that all the shots were fired at close range into the chest and abdomen, then police noticed the suicide belt, stopped firing, and moved a safe distance away waiting for the bomb unit. The suspect rolled around on the ground wounded and in pain and bled out before the bomb squad got to him.
But no way to know for sure at this time.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 465 by DrJones*, posted 12-14-2019 6:53 PM DrJones* has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 472 by DrJones*, posted 12-15-2019 9:34 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 474 of 670 (870222)
01-14-2020 10:08 PM


An off duty Secret Service agent walking home in Brooklyn shot and killed a leashed dog. At first he claimed the dog was not leashed, but the leash is clearly visible in the photo. So the Secret Service changed its story. The dog was on a leash but the leash was not being held by anyone. I await the change in this story, too.
Firing a gun on a New York City street at a dog? Really? This agent should not be carrying a gun. I don’t know what charges he’s vulnerable to, but I hope illegal discharge of a weapon and animal cruelty at a minimum. He should also lose his job. He’s obviously in the wrong profession anyway if he can be spooked by a dog.
Source: Off-duty Secret Service agent kills leashed dog in Brooklyn
Percy

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 478 of 670 (876745)
05-27-2020 9:54 AM
Reply to: Message 476 by Hyroglyphx
03-06-2020 6:24 PM


Re: Marquez Shooting Deliberation
Hyroglyphx writes:
Police, after seeing the weapon, retreated downstairs. Marquez then deliberately walks downstairs and points the firearm directly at the officers, thus leaving them with no other option.
The video does not appear to show that "she points the firearm directly at the officers." I've queued the video up to the exact right place. You can advance frame-at-a-time using the "." character:
The gun was fake.
The police saw a fake gun, didn't detect that it was fake, and lost sight of the fact that this was a wellness check. They fired twelve rounds at an unarmed person. Did they miss the first eleven times? As we've seen so often, these supposedly highly trained officers were scared out of their wits and just kept firing and firing.
The DA's office determined that officers had properly followed procedures, but I'm sure there's a lot of interpretation involved. I'm confident words like "reasonable" appear many times in those procedures.
If no police had been called, only wellness and health professions, Marquez would still be alive and nobody would have been hurt.
The family is suing Pasadena for $20 million. The city doesn't have a prayer and will settle out of court for an undisclosed sum, probably around $3-$4 million, much more if they properly consider what a jury would conclude after seeing that video frame by frame (that's how I viewed the critical portions), and even more if the city fears a jury could be convinced that Marquez might have been able to work through her problems and return to work at some point.
I'm still waiting for the results of the London Bridge incident investigation. Recent accounts (e.g., London Bridge: What we know about the attack - BBC News) still include a narrative in which the video and image evidence is contradictory. When they find a narrative in which the evidence doesn't contradict itself then I'll begin to believe they're approaching the truth.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 476 by Hyroglyphx, posted 03-06-2020 6:24 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 503 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-09-2020 10:57 AM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 479 of 670 (876929)
05-30-2020 1:03 PM


Jimmy Kimmel Speaks Out
This isn't about police shootings but police treatment of minorities, a close enough tie-in to be worth posting in this thread:
--Percy

Replies to this message:
 Message 483 by Stile, posted 06-04-2020 9:23 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 480 of 670 (877066)
06-03-2020 7:25 AM


The Silencing of the Press
With the death of George Floyd, not with a gun but with a knee for eight minutes and forty-six seconds until he expired, this thread seems the best fit for this video.
When a government does not want reported what it is doing they silence the press. Here are a number of examples:
Police are behaving carelessly, indiscriminately, wantonly, egregiously against protesters, not noticing or caring whether any action is required. Now reporters holding microphones and cameras and notebooks have become targets alongside those who merely stand or march in solidarity.
This is not a few bad apples. This is systemic racism and institutional violence. Americans must protest in all ways possible the turning of our country into a police state that targets all those who aren't blessed by accidents of birth with the mark of privilege: whiteness.
--Percy

Replies to this message:
 Message 481 by jar, posted 06-03-2020 7:37 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied
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Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 490 of 670 (877205)
06-08-2020 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 487 by xongsmith
06-05-2020 6:00 PM


Re: The Silencing of the Press

This message is a reply to:
 Message 487 by xongsmith, posted 06-05-2020 6:00 PM xongsmith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 494 by vimesey, posted 06-08-2020 11:41 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 491 of 670 (877206)
06-08-2020 11:13 AM


An Amber Ruffin Story
Amber Ruffin is one of the writers and occasional on-air talent on Seth Myer's Late Night. Over four nights she told one story each night about an encounter with the police. This isn't about police shootings, but each of her stories could have ended that way. Here is one of her stories:
--Percy

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 492 of 670 (877207)
06-08-2020 11:20 AM


A Reminder of the Toll
From the Washington Post: Police promised reforms. They still fatally shoot nearly 1,000 people every year.
Arrests and convictions are exceptionally difficult to obtain:
quote:
Since 2005, 110 nonfederal law enforcement officers have been charged with murder or manslaughter for shooting someone on duty, Stinson’s records show. From those ranks, 42 officers were convicted of a crime often a lesser offense while 50 were not, their cases usually ending with acquittals or dismissals. More than a dozen cases are pending, according to Stinson.
The word "impunity" comes to mind.
--Percy

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 493 of 670 (877209)
06-08-2020 11:35 AM


A Word on Impunity
An opinion piece from the Washington Post: Police think they can get away with anything. That’s because they usually do.
One core point is that complaint systems do not work, especially for minorities:
quote:
These patterns demonstrate the larger truth that too often, instead of operating as an effective check on police abuses, complaint systems serve to further disempower poor, minority community members. The system offers the illusion that the police are listening to all residents, but they aren’t. Moreover, by repeatedly siding with officers, the systems encourage officers to adopt a mind-set that when black and brown citizens object to what they’re doing, they are almost always wrong; that reinforces officers’ sense of untouchability.
--Percy

Replies to this message:
 Message 496 by Kleinman, posted 06-08-2020 12:04 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 497 of 670 (877232)
06-08-2020 11:16 PM


Police
This is John Oliver’s latest show called simply Police. It explains, among other things, why police shoot so many people. The reasons are multiple, but the one I’ll mention is that the police have been tasked with too many responsibilities. Whether you’re a criminal or a speeder or mentally ill or homeless or involved in a domestic dispute or needing a wellness check or having a loud party or whatever, it is a man with a gun who shows up. We need to invest in more diverse and appropriate service departments for our cities and towns and less in a one-organization-does-it-all police department.
The whole show is worth watching. Enjoy.
Percy

  
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