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Author | Topic: Testing The Christian Apologists | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.7
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Faith writes: I understasnd that you don't LIKE Christian theology but if you could just put aside your feeling about it you might at least be able to recognize that the theology does hold together. Yet I point out how it CAN'T hold together at even a basic level and you can't refute it; you simply say 'I believe'
I find it to be completely consistent myself Yes we know. But then we also know how you think.
and all your objections just hit me as ...some kind of thinking problem. It sure is a thinking problem. It starts with you having to believe in a corrupted view of an ancient set of myths and then trying to make it make sense in a real world full of real knowledge. It's called motivated thinking.
Yes it is original sin that explains why we suffer, along with all our own personal sins piled on. Which is an evil idea.
You just say how the original sin is something else that you yourself made up about God's condemning us etc etc. *I* made up?
So you don't like original sin, so no wonder you can't make sense of Christian theology. If you just keep objecting based on your own feelings there is no way to have a conversation about these things. It's got nothing to do with what I like. It's just an evil idea. Condemned for someone else's fictional sin - that's immoral.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
Faith writes: Luther said "The devil is God's devil." He's on God's leash as it were. What you don't get is that for me it's like arguing against someone that believes in the Tooth Fairy. I mean, what sort of drivel is that? Even supposing Luther had more knowledge about any of this than anyone else, it still doesn't make any sense. Why would god have devil? Why ffs?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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jar Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Tangle writes: I mean, what sort of drivel is that? Even supposing Luther had more knowledge about any of this than anyone else, it still doesn't make any sense. Why would god have devil? Why ffs? Remember that the Bible is filled with contradictions and this is another great example. Through most of the Bible Satan is depicted as an agent of God, the tester/tempter who God uses to proof individuals. Satan ONLY does what God tells Satan to do. That is the position that Luther is referencing and it is certainly Biblical. Most of the Satan as an opponent or independent agent comes from trying to pretend Revelation actually makes any sense or has any meaning relevant beyond the period when it was written.
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ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
God created Satan. Nobody mentions Satan. He is the evil one, not God."If you can keep your head when all about you Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...." -- Rudyard Kipling
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Phat Member Posts: 18299 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
God created Satan. Samuel Colt created a revolver too. We dont hold him responsible for every wrong done with his guns.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
Phat writes: Samuel Colt created a revolver too. We dont hold him responsible for every wrong done with his guns. Wow, a new low. Are you seriously comparing god to a capitalist that made guns? And are you now telling us that god is NOT responsible for everything? This god of yours is all powerful when he's doing stuff you like and a puny as a baby when not.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
What you don't get is that for me it's like arguing against someone that believes in the Tooth Fairy. Oh I do indeed get that. You are quite willing to treat as nothing the whole history of Christianity with its great cultural and political influence that made western civilization, and treat its great great men and women including its theologians as ignornant children. Even when I was an atheist I had more sense than that. The devil didn't start out as the devil. He started out as the most beautiful and powerful of God's angels. He became the devil by becoming corrupted by jealousy of God and the desire to displace Him. Some theologians believe that the human race was created in order to defeat him, which comes about in the very last days, even past the last millennium which is to begin after Jesus returns. Laugh your head off, you're the loser in this by treating it as a silly story. You grew up a Catholic right? I assume you heard Jesus' teaching about how we must become as little children. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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jar Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Actually Faith, it was to a considerable extent Islamic civilization and science that made Western culture and the Christian Cathedrals possible. Without Islamic science and mathematics Western Christianity would have been lucky if they could build a three story hovel.
Edited by jar, : fix sub-title
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
Faith writes: Oh I do indeed get that. You are quite willing to treat as nothing the whole history of Christianity with its great cultural and political influence that made western civilization, and treat its great great men and women including its theologians as ignornant children. Even when I was an atheist I had more sense than that. The culture, politics, armies, wealth and institutions are one thing. Their ludicrous belief system is quite another.
The devil didn't start out as the devil. He started out as the most beautiful and powerful of God's angels. He became the devil by becoming corrupted by jealousy of God and the desire to displace Him. Some theologians believe that the human race was created in order to defeat him, which comes about in the very last days, even past the last millennium which is to begin after Jesus returns. See what I mean about fairytales stories? A total fabrication.
Laugh your head off, you're the loser in this by treating it as a silly story. It's too tragic to laugh I'm afraid.
I assume you heard Jesus' teaching about how we must become as little children. He was right there. Only a child *could* believe such drivel. A good fiction writer would blush to produce a script that bad.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
The fairytale quality of the biblical war between good and evil is one of its loveliest qualities. All good fairy tales seem to intuit its form. I love the idea that we live in a fairy tale. There's nothing inherently wrong about such an idea, it just offends you for some reason. The whole doctrine of salvation is a Cinderella story.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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jar Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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With the God Character playing both Wicked Witch and Fairy Godmother. And people think god was a male.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
God the Father is the Good King who sent His Son the Prince to find a bride. There is a test she must pass, believing in the King and trusting in the Prince. Satan is the evil being who tries to thwart the plan (Yeah, well it isn't a perfect replica of Cinderella. Or vice versa.) The ugly stepsisters are those who don't believe and won't be saved.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
Faith writes: The fairytale quality of the biblical war between good and evil is one of its loveliest qualities. All good fairy tales seem to intuit its form. I love the idea that we live in a fairy tale. There's nothing inherently wrong about such an idea, it just offends you for some reason. The whole doctrine of salvation is a Cinderella story. Everyone likes a good story Faith. But most people understand that they are just stories. Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Phat Member Posts: 18299 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
After researching and watching yet another Christian Apologist, Dr.Abdu Murray, I am concluding that I see better reasoned and thoughtful arguments from them than I am seeing here.
Dr.Abdu Murray I am open to see dishonesty from these talks, yet the only thing I see is well reasoned, persuasive arguments from people who actually have read both the Bible and the Quran and who have concluded that Christianity is worthy of trust. Go ahead and research my source. You won't find any snake oil or phony diplomas there. I submit that this whole basic argument asserting that all of the apologists are dishonest is flawed.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18299 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
But most people understand that they are just stories. Most people? I'd like to see evidence for that! Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
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