Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,818 Year: 3,075/9,624 Month: 920/1,588 Week: 103/223 Day: 1/13 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Testing The Christian Apologists
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 602 of 1086 (868994)
12-21-2019 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 601 by ringo
12-21-2019 10:53 AM


Re: It's all about what you claim God did.
ringo writes:
Don't you see how silly the idea of being "saved" is?
First, you can only be saved from something. That something is damnation - by God. So God is supposedly saving you from Himself. (That should be fairly easy, even for the weakling god that you posit - all he has to do is nothing.)
Second, you can not be saved from something before it happens. A firefighter doesn't rescue you before the fire. You can hope you'll be rescued. You can be pretty sure that you'll be rescued. But you can not say that you have been rescued when what you need to be rescued from hasn't happened yet. (And if the firefighter is the one who started the fire, I wouldn't trust his promise to save me from it.)
I will admit that apologetics essentially "makes up" a storyline. I will defend this charge since we are talking supernatural possibilities here. So to continue... Given the supernatural being real, we not only have God...we have
1) A War in Heaven
2) The dark side.
3) Humans as free-willed spirit beings rather than simply animals. So far as we know, we are the only animal to be aware of our Creator. I suppose we could sue Him for allowing a war to break out in Heaven and for us to gain knowledge at the expense of innocent truth. The only way that humans could mature into our spiritual destiny was by being given a choice to decide which side we were on. One can obviously question God as to why this whole scenario had to happen, but even if you choose to believe none of it, you still have made a conscious choice. The ball is in our court...not Gods.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 601 by ringo, posted 12-21-2019 10:53 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 603 by ringo, posted 12-21-2019 12:20 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 604 by jar, posted 12-21-2019 12:21 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 605 of 1086 (868997)
12-21-2019 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 604 by jar
12-21-2019 12:21 PM


Re: It's all about what you claim God did.
Reality itself should be challenged and questioned. What seems evidential, measured, and logical to you may end up being deception.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 604 by jar, posted 12-21-2019 12:21 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 607 by jar, posted 12-21-2019 12:29 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 606 of 1086 (868998)
12-21-2019 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 604 by jar
12-21-2019 12:21 PM


Re: It's all about what you claim God did.
jar writes:
And with number three, are you now claiming God does not have foreknowledge?
Whether He does or not ir irrelevant. We must continue to make our conscious choices and live with the consequences. If you throw all of your gods away, you will live with the consequences.Thank God for His Grace.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 604 by jar, posted 12-21-2019 12:21 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 608 by jar, posted 12-21-2019 12:33 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 609 of 1086 (869005)
12-21-2019 4:52 PM
Reply to: Message 608 by jar
12-21-2019 12:33 PM


Re: It's all about what you claim God did.
This explains a lot. It tells me that you never became a believer largely because you were taught to question everything you were told and everything that is taught in mainstream Christianity. I can respect this to a point, and I think that GOD, if GOD exists, will respect your reasoning also...knowing the motives of your heart and intentions. That being said, I question the teaching to throw God away. I believe as you do, that we are charged to do good for others. I think that there are far too many political Christians who have an unhealthy love for money, and this is why they continue to defend Donald Trump. I also agree that just believing and receiving Jesus into our heart (and mind) is no surefire inoculation from stinkin thinkin. I also find it a bit extreme to simply label all apologists dishonest who refuse to question their conclusions. Some of them believe that one has to stand for something no matter what the cost rather than simply discard each new revelation in the name of critical thinking, testing, model, mechanism, methodology, etc. By that line of reasoning, none of us would believe that Jesus died, rose from the dead, and paid for our transgressions. You may argue that it is better to be uncertain, thus spurring yourself to always do more. Only God can judge the motives of any of our hearts. Personally, I was particularly impressed with the Islamic Apologists who decided to embrace Christianity after critically evaluating Islam.
Can you honestly charge Abdu Murray with being dishonest simply because he did not take the final step and question religion itself? Critical Thinking is a useful tool, but I disagree with the conclusion that an honest man would throw even his beliefs away in the name of truth. Truth is Christ. You can't go deeper than that. What you do means nothing had God not made a way for you. At best, you can comfort people in this life only. Not saying we shouldnt, however.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 608 by jar, posted 12-21-2019 12:33 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 610 by jar, posted 12-21-2019 5:12 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 611 by Theodoric, posted 12-23-2019 9:44 AM Phat has replied
 Message 612 by ringo, posted 12-23-2019 10:49 AM Phat has replied
 Message 615 by Theodoric, posted 12-26-2019 11:02 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 613 of 1086 (869146)
12-24-2019 9:45 AM
Reply to: Message 612 by ringo
12-23-2019 10:49 AM


Re: It's all about what you claim God did.
So truth is not important to you.
Jesus Before Pilate
37Then You are a king! Pilate said. You say that I am a king, Jesus answered. For this reason I was born and have come into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone who belongs to the truth listens to My voice. 38What is truth? Pilate asked. And having said this, he went out again to the Jews and told them, I find no basis for a charge against Him. 3

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 612 by ringo, posted 12-23-2019 10:49 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 614 by ringo, posted 12-24-2019 10:48 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 616 of 1086 (869225)
12-26-2019 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 614 by ringo
12-24-2019 10:48 AM


Re: It's all about what you claim God did.
I've emphasized time and time and time again that I do not scoff at or ignore His message. I simply give you an argument that He is just as important in the grand scheme as His message is.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 614 by ringo, posted 12-24-2019 10:48 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 623 by ringo, posted 12-27-2019 10:42 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 617 of 1086 (869227)
12-26-2019 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 611 by Theodoric
12-23-2019 9:44 AM


Theodorics Donnybrook Against RZIM
Theo writes:
Abdu Murray? Really? A Ravi Zacharias acolyte? Really? I have repeatedly shown that Ravi Zacharias is a known and admitted liar, cheat and scoundrel. Why should I not assume that those associated with him are not the same?
I find it very interesting that Abdu Murray claims to be an ex-Muslim but there is absolutely no information showing he was actually raised a Muslim or was at any time a devout Muslim. He has no education or training in religion. He is a commercial real estate lawyer. Maybe you can find some actual info on this guy that shows he is what he claims.
To refresh your memory on Ravi, here are actually verifiable facts showing that he is a liar, a cheat and a scoundrel.
RaviWatch - Investigating the false claims of evangelist Ravi Zacharias
I see no real facts in the one website that you have presented. To be fair, I bought the book by the accusing author, Stephen Baumann.
Bio writes:
WHO AM I AND WHY DO I PICK ON RAVI ZACHARIAS?
My name is Steve Baughman. I am a San Francisco lawyer, musician and some-time-part-time philosophy graduate student. I am an atheist and I have been known to post videos at YouTube as the Friendly Banjo Atheist.
In my studies I have come to see that some of the best philosophers are Christians. Atheists who deny this are either ignorant or blinded by anger. When I find a brilliant and articulate defender of the faith I tend to pay attention. Around early 2015 I happened upon RZ. He was not only articulate but had the Oxford and Cambridge education and multiple doctorate degrees to deserve a fair listen.
Plus, he made an argument about the prophetic inspiration of the Book of Daniel that ruffled my world view. If RZ was right about Daniel, (and his impressive academic credentials made him all the more persuasive to me,) I would need to reconsider my atheism.
It took many hours of reading and contacting Old Testament scholars to see that RZ's Daniel argument was fundamentally dishonest.
I wondered why so qualified an academic would resort to bogus tactics of persuasion. I began digging and quickly found that RZ was a pretender. He had no doctorates, not even an academic M.A. He had never been a "visiting scholar at Cambridge University" nor a "Senior Research Fellow at Oxford University." In fact, without exception, every single impressive academic claim he made about himself was either false or grossly exaggerated.
I was astonished that he could get away with this while speaking to educated audiences worldwide. And I was especially troubled that not a single one of the real scholars with whom RZ partnered in evangelism ever bothered publicly to call him on his dishonesty (John Lennox. Paul Copan. Jeremy Begbie, Alister McGrath, Norman Geisler, and many others.)
We all know about the Code of Silence amongst cops and cardinals. But evangelists? Don't their holy documents require them to reprove erring elders for the benefit of the community? Or at very least to not enter the preaching business with bold deceivers?
There were only two responses open to me. I could shrug my shoulders and move on, ("Sigh,... evangelists will be evangelists.") Or I could document and publicize RZ's deceit. I chose the latter, not in the naive hope that my work would lead to RZ's demise. Rather I hoped that exposing RZ would raise critical awareness on the part of pew-warmers in churches and universities, at least in my own country. "Be on guard; there really are charming preachers who will deceive you!" It was also my hope that the RZ scandal would prompt the professional Christian press to begin a thorough discussion of credential-padding by evangelists. This is a serious and widespread problem.
I am happy to report that the word about RZ is getting out. But it is with no help from RZ's aforementioned colleagues, nor from leaders in the God Business or the Christian press. Perhaps that will change soon. If it doesn't, and if I am wrong about God's existence, atheists and other reprobates might not be the only ones in serious trouble on Judgment Day.
Steve Baughman
San Francisco
November 2016
After reading it and researching him, I may have a different opinion.
You are known for holding grudges. If someone says something untrue one time, you never again trust them. The Bible teaches that all have sinned and all sin. Therefore your eagerness to vilify Ravi based on one dubious website is careless at best, Based on the body of work that Zacharias has done, the intelligence which he clearly exudes, and no verifiable way to substantiate the claims from the Raviwatch website, I am unconvinced that he is a liar and fraud based only on that information. Nevermind, it won't change your grudge. You dont see it, but you have as much of a bias against Christian apologists as I may have for them.
Ravi is hardly a scoundrel. At worst, he made the mistake of using an honorary doctorate as an actual one. The incident involving the woman looks to be more of an attempt to exploit him.
You really need to learn to forgive people for sins that we ALL make. I have told you before that your guy Richard Carrier has done as bad or worse things than anything Ravi may have done. Finally, just because someone works for RZIM is no reason to smear their reputations with the bias you have against Ravi himself.
Now about Abdu Muray. I need to do some research....in order to answer the endless argumentative challenge. I was impressed after hearing his first testimony.
Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.
Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 611 by Theodoric, posted 12-23-2019 9:44 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 618 by Theodoric, posted 12-26-2019 3:55 PM Phat has replied
 Message 622 by Theodoric, posted 12-27-2019 10:18 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 619 of 1086 (869236)
12-26-2019 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 618 by Theodoric
12-26-2019 3:55 PM


Re: Theodorics Donnybrook Against RZIM
I am quite impressed by the fact that you present no information that supports Abdu Murray.
Impressed? Odd word to use. OK, here is what I have:
(From Harper Collins,book publisher)
quote:
Abdu Murray is North American Director with Ravi Zacharias International Ministries and is the author of three books, including his latest, Saving Truth: Finding Meaning and Clarity in a Post-Truth World. For most of his life, Abdu was a proud Muslim who studied the Qur’an and Islam. After a nine year investigation into the historical, philosophical, and scientific underpinnings of the major world religions and views, Abdu discovered that the historic Christian faith can answer the questions of the mind and the longings of the heart.
Abdu has spoken to diverse international audiences and has participated in debates and dialogues across the globe. He has appeared as a guest on numerous radio and television programs all over the world.
Abdu holds a BA in Psychology from the University of Michigan and earned his Juris Doctor from the University of Michigan Law School. As an attorney, Abdu was named several times in Best Lawyers in America and Michigan Super Lawyer. Abdu is the Scholar in Residence of Christian Thought and Apologetics at the Josh McDowell Institute of Oklahoma Wesleyan University.
I suppose we owe it to ourselves to find out if his college degrees are legitimate or if his claims of being top lawyer hold any merit. I guess I cant fault you for being skeptical, but why are you not as skeptical of the mythicists or the atheist activists? I'm sure everyone has a skeleton here and there.
Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 618 by Theodoric, posted 12-26-2019 3:55 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 620 by jar, posted 12-26-2019 5:20 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 621 by Theodoric, posted 12-26-2019 5:55 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 624 of 1086 (869309)
12-28-2019 9:57 AM
Reply to: Message 622 by Theodoric
12-27-2019 10:18 AM


Examining The Evidence
Theo writes:
Are you incapable of reading actual evidence showing what a liar Ravi is?
I was curious, so I bought the actual book that Steve Baughman wrote. I will admit that the evidence concerning the lies of his scholastic status is solid and without dispute.
In addition, I saw the evidence of Ravi's response to the charges:
Exclusive: Ravi Zacharias Apologizes for False Claims about His Credentials at Oxford and Cambridge. The book which I purchased for $3.99 on Kindle was one that Steve Baughman wrote:
I also saw an interview online with Steve Baughman
I noticed that Steve Baughman is an attorney by training as well as being known online as the Banjo Atheist. So I researched him too and found him honest. The charges that you, jar, and ringo have made about the apologists now seem more true to me than they did before I began my own investigation. To be honest, this evidence has thrown me into a state of cognitive dissonance, but I am facing it and moving on.
I do not find any evidence that his associates at RZIM are dishonest or misleading. Sadly, however, the status and reputation of RZIM has suffered greatly because of these exposes.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 622 by Theodoric, posted 12-27-2019 10:18 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 625 by Faith, posted 12-28-2019 10:14 AM Phat has replied
 Message 629 by ringo, posted 12-28-2019 10:45 AM Phat has replied
 Message 632 by Theodoric, posted 12-28-2019 11:44 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 626 of 1086 (869311)
12-28-2019 10:21 AM
Reply to: Message 625 by Faith
12-28-2019 10:14 AM


Re: Examining The Evidence
It does not change what he has to say, but it does indict Christians in general who ignore the seriousness and truthfulness of the claims. I personally forgive Ravi for anything he has done wrong, but I can never again trust him fully.
RZIM: Statement on Ravi Zacharias' Biography Again I am stunned by the evidence. I can see why the claims of dishonest apologists are used by many critical thinkers.
Regarding the online affair and the subsequent court case, I was at first convinced that Ravi had been framed. After listening to Baughman's presentation, however, I again see where Ravi was guilty.
Steve Baughman Interview writes:
Baughman notes that Zacharias’ defenders have tended to dismiss his allegations, chalking them up to Baughman’s own hatred of God (4). While this is unfortunate, it is hardly surprising given the tribalistic nature of many Christians. But it does suggest that Baughman’s best chance to reach Christians is found in adopting a measured tone sans any unnecessarily alienating rhetoric.
Baughman convinced me, was I a juror. This jury is no longer out. I confess that the claims against the number one apologist are true.
In summation, I present the closing parts of the interview:
quote:
RR: I share your dismay at the tribalism that leads Christians to overlook the moral lapses within their community, including the fabulism of an apologist like Mr. Zacharias. It hardly needs to be pointed out that if an atheist like Richard Dawkins were behaving in this manner, Christians would not hesitate to call out his dishonesty. This double standard is indefensible. Needless to say, it also does enormous damage to the credibility of the Christian witness to a skeptical world.
Thanks for taking the time to discuss these important issues with us. If a person wants to learn more about this topic, where can they go?
SB: A great deal is coming out now from Christian bloggers. One may simply google Ravi Zacharias credentials for a wealth of information. The Spiritual Sounding Board has done a fine job of assembling the credential deceptions in one place. You and Warren Throckmorton have also done careful work at your blogs on the credential issues. I have a book that is about to go to press and should be out by the end of the year. I hope folks will keep their eyes out for my Coverup at God, Inc.; Sex, Lies and God’s Great Apologist, Ravi Zacharias.
I bought the book and am now reading it. I can't avoid the evidence, even if it discredits Christianity.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 625 by Faith, posted 12-28-2019 10:14 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 627 by Faith, posted 12-28-2019 10:32 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 628 by jar, posted 12-28-2019 10:41 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 636 of 1086 (869338)
12-28-2019 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 629 by ringo
12-28-2019 10:45 AM


Re: Examining The Evidence
ringo writes:
The problem is that you're still not looking at the apologetics. You're conceding that some apologists have been dishonest in their personal lives but you're leaving yourself open to still believing their apologetic arguments. I don't care if Ravi Zacharias slept with the entire Mormon Tabernacle Choir. I'm only interested in what he says about the Bible. Why do you refuse to consider that?
Because I believe what I was taught, basically. Not everyone who teaches it the traditional way is a scam artist or liar. What's more, none of the ones attempting to "teach" me the correct way to look at it have ever admitted to having a born again experience with Jesus. In fact, many of you claim that He never existed. Why should I listen to your plain reading of a book that you tout as nothing more than a secular humanist message to do humanitarian acts for others?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 629 by ringo, posted 12-28-2019 10:45 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 641 by ringo, posted 12-29-2019 1:14 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 637 of 1086 (869339)
12-28-2019 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 635 by Theodoric
12-28-2019 12:02 PM


Re: Examining The Evidence
I see your point. "The Christians"...by whom I assume you mean the literalist fundamentalists, believe that everyone sins and is capable of deceiving themselves. We thus tend to give anyone who confesses their sin before the church body and repents honestly as no longer a scoundrel, sinner, adulterer or whatever. Granted we are wise enough to give the healing process some time and insist upon accountability. WE do not like liars any more than you do, but we tend to forgive them quicker than you would. (apparently)
The reason I stopped defending Ravi is not that he sinned. It is because he had to be exposed and did not catch it himself beforehand.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 635 by Theodoric, posted 12-28-2019 12:02 PM Theodoric has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 638 by Faith, posted 12-29-2019 4:03 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 640 of 1086 (869363)
12-29-2019 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 638 by Faith
12-29-2019 4:03 AM


Re: Examining The Evidence
Faith writes:
I still feel I need to know more about how Ravi got into what he got into. Did he believe what he was saying at the time in some weird way, perhaps?
If he taught a class at Oxford in Wycliffe Hall, I think he said, or maybe I have the name wrong, did he feel he could call himself a professor without bothering about accurate titles or what? His statement of repentance or apology emphasizes the importance of using correct titles, so is he saying he was just ignorant or sloppy about their use or what? Yes, I'm trying to find a way to minimize it, but in the end, maybe he was conscious of it all.
However, that doesn't make what you said wrong, about how the church forgives and wipes the slate clean, because scripture is clear that we do forgive and consider the slate wiped clean if there is repentance. And if we are born again, then God does not count our sins against us. But we do have to repent.
And we still suffer consequences for our sins in this life. Remember David, who sinned with Bathsheba and had her husband murdered. The consequences were horrendous. First, his baby son with Bathsheba died, then one of his other sons raped his half-sister and then treated her like dirt. Then Absalom rebelled and tried to take David's throne from him and died. All that came from David's sins with Bathsheba. We all suffer for our sins, and sometimes our sins have consequences for others too.
I see some in my own life, some sufferings and deprivation of happiness for me and even my descendants too as a result of my own sins. It's depressing but it's better to know it than not. This is how the Moral Law works, and it works in everybody's life, believer or nonbeliever. But still, God accepts my repentance and welcomes me back as far as my future life with Him goes. I do have to suffer here, nevertheless.
Yes. I don't think that Ravi was consciously aware that he was deceiving people--he likely justified the titles in his own mind. The author explains it this way:
Steve Baughman writes:
Ravi’s greatest intellectual sin has not been his dishonesty but his shallowness. There is a rich discussion underway between committed scholars on all sides of the God issues. Ravi Zacharias muddies the water with his pretended expertise. May this book nudge him aside with speed.
Second, a theological point. I consider it fair fighting to suggest that if Christianity were true, Christians would be different. The religion’s official documents speak mightily of the sanctifying power of the blood of Jesus. This is one of the few testable claims Christianity makes. If being a new creature in Christ means anything, it means being significantly different from us old creatures. If Jesus really sanctifies we should see more than mere anecdotes about lost wretches getting found; we should see vast differences between God, Inc. and Tobacco, Inc. A Hindu once asked Ravi If the Christian faith is truly supernatural, why is it not more evident in the lives of so many Christians I know? Perhaps this heathen had a premonition about something that is now more widely known; Ravi Zacharias’s secret life is a counterexample to the message of his public life.
Of course, a single failure of a miracle drug does not make it snake oil. But when the industry leaders who push the miracle drug do not bother taking it, or they take it to no effect, critics are not unreasonable to view that as weighing against the miraculousness of the drug. In this book, we shall see that significant parts of the Christian business world (here I refer to seminaries, colleges, evangelical organizations, churches, and publishers) have not manifested the newness that the religion of their livelihoods promises. To what extent that undermines the truth of the world’s biggest religion is, I submit, a legitimate point for discussion. Thoughtful readers will spare me the Christians aren’t perfect, just forgiven straw man. No skeptic worth her salt considers the absence of perfect Christians to be evidence against the truth of the religion. The claim is, rather, that if Christianity were true, Christians would be noticeably different around the things that matter, like money and integrity in business.
They aren’t. Therefore, . . .
Baughman, Steve. Cover-Up in the Kingdom: Phone Sex, Lies, And God's Great Apologist, Ravi Zacharias. BookBaby. Kindle Edition.
I respect how this author attempts to keep his own pride in check---he is an attorney by trade---and presents simply the available facts behind the matter. Unlike Theodoric, I am in no way eager to brand Ravi as a shyster, con artist, or flim-flam man. The author describes Ravi as shallow, but I believe that Ravi is intelligent and his perspective on Christianity still has value. Sadly, this book violated my trust and caused me some cognitive dissonance in my beliefs. Theodoric first brought this issue up, and I find it humbling that God is using atheists to temper my perspective on belief, truth, and reality. jar has also mentioned the dishonesty of many Biblical Christians, but he claims that they all are dishonest---which is ridiculous.
Perhaps there is a confusion of terminology here. As a Christian, I believe that all have sinned. Everybody is dishonest at one time or another. The counter-argument is that we humans do have the ability, to tell the truth, and have integrity.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 638 by Faith, posted 12-29-2019 4:03 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 642 by Faith, posted 12-29-2019 1:16 PM Phat has replied
 Message 644 by Theodoric, posted 12-29-2019 1:31 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 643 of 1086 (869369)
12-29-2019 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 641 by ringo
12-29-2019 1:14 PM


Re: Examining The Evidence
Ok Ok. I got you. But my bigger question at the moment is whether the Christian Nationalists can handle being broke. Reality suggests that a lot of them will soon be heading that way. The wealthy ones were never really Christians anyway, right?
But lets you and i discuss some of the basic dogma that is common in Christian apologetics. Stuff that I may have taken for granted and that you may have never accepted.
  • Sell all that you have and give to the poor.--You claim that this message is for everybody. Am I right? Please elaborate, and please show us that you are well on your way to selling everything.
  • Accept Jesus into your heart. --
  • The flesh wars against the Spirit. Thus, resist the flesh and feed the Spirit.
  • Find a local church and commune regularly with others Does the Saskatchewan Library count?
  • Any others you might find

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
    "~Thugpreacha
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
    ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 641 by ringo, posted 12-29-2019 1:14 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 648 by ringo, posted 12-29-2019 2:09 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 645 of 1086 (869372)
    12-29-2019 1:34 PM
    Reply to: Message 642 by Faith
    12-29-2019 1:16 PM


    Re: Examining The Evidence
    ringo writes:
    But surely you want to know which ones are liars and which ones are not, don't you? How can you do that except by testing what they say?
    I always liked Billy Graham. My parents did too. Evidently so did many presidents.
    Let's add him to my discussion with ringo. I am curious how ringo responds to common apologetic assumptions that we Christians believe in.
    Here is a good blog that I am just now reading. I googled "Billy Graham+Apologetics" and found it.
    Billy Graham:Apologist?
    Edited by Thugpreacha, : oops

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
    "~Thugpreacha
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
    ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 642 by Faith, posted 12-29-2019 1:16 PM Faith has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 646 by Faith, posted 12-29-2019 1:42 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 649 by ringo, posted 12-29-2019 2:11 PM Phat has replied

      
    Newer Topic | Older Topic
    Jump to:


    Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

    ™ Version 4.2
    Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024