|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
EvC Forum active members: 64 (9163 total) |
| |
ChatGPT | |
Total: 916,419 Year: 3,676/9,624 Month: 547/974 Week: 160/276 Day: 34/23 Hour: 1/3 |
Thread ▼ Details |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: Charismatic Chaos | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
|
Okay, but first take away his drivers license.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
quote:Do cataracts ever simply dissolve?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
When they were never there in the first place, sure.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
dwise1 Member Posts: 5948 Joined: Member Rating: 5.5 |
A couple decades ago there was an expos book, Salvation for Sale, written by a former staff member of Pat Robertson's TV network; the author had been a major force in bringing the network's programming up closer to commercial standards. He witnessed Pat Robertson do a healing. An old man with ashen complexion was wheeled up in his wheelchair and Robertson prayed over him. And as the author watched, the man's complexion turned rosy and his spirits visibly lifted; the man had been healed. Then a short time later, the author decided to do a follow-up (good for the TV show) and discovered that the man had died a few days after the "healing."
Placebo effect in action? How often do faith healers do any follow-up checks to see whether the fix had taken? True story: I had heard of the book and went into the neighborhood Crown Bookstore (which should date this story) and asked for it:"Do you have Salvation for Sale?" "No, but there's a church right down the street from here."
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Coyote Member (Idle past 2127 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
From Wiki:
Exposed as a fraud by James Randi Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Double Post
Edited by Thugpreacha, : double post errorChance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
ringo, in another thread writes: Of course, you never have bought into the idea that God allowed Satan to exist only to validate the concept of free will.
Don't you see how silly the idea of being "saved" is?First, you can only be saved from something. That something is damnation - by God. So God is supposedly saving you from Himself. (That should be fairly easy, even for the weakling god that you posit - all he has to do is nothing.) Second, you can not be saved from something before it happens. A firefighter doesn't rescue you before the fire. You can hope you'll be rescued. You can be pretty sure that you'll be rescued. But you can not say that you have been rescued when what you need to be rescued from hasn't happened yet. (And if the firefighter is the one who started the fire, I wouldn't trust his promise to save me from it.)Stile writes:
Pretty much anything can be corrupted in some way. Just because religion has been grossly corrupted in vast quantities doesn't mean that the good parts aren't still good.Phage writes: Contentedness need not be contingent on a fantasy. Stile writes: As a general statement, you are correct. For each and every human on an individual level, you are wrong. There are some people who do require a fantasy to be content. Phage0070 writes: People who rely on religion to solve their problems are setting themselves up for disappointment, and those who solve their own problems are wasting their efforts with religious practices. Stile writes: This depends entirely on which problems are being solved, and what efforts are being spent. Throwing out religion or irrational hopefulness entirely is just a bit too far, though. I agree that a world with no religion would be better than the world we have right now. However, a world that can identify and make use of the good parts of religion is better than a world with no religion at all. Phage writes: In essence you are arguing that religion is a recreational pastime, which would be fine except that it HURTS PEOPLE. Stile writes:
I agree. Looking back at Spong through my beliefs today, I see that he was more liberal and new age than I like. That he was a retired Episcopal Bishop links him up in my mind to our very own jar, who has steadfastly defended the basic premise that we should throw God away and be the doer ourselves. In such a case, prayer would only serve as an inner meditation reminding ourselves of what we can, should, and will do for others on a daily basis.
Funny, I find that "in essence" he is saying that religion can (even should?) be a recreational pastime. And if used as such then it does not hurt people. It's when religion hurts people that it should be berated, not when it's helping people. Phage writes: People die every day because religion prevents them access to proper medical care. People (mostly women and minorities) are prevented education and other rights that would increase their utility to society, because of religion. Stile writes: I had my eye operation for a vitrectomy on November 12th. I found myself unable to see focus out of said eye which has continued to this very day. The Doctor will reevaluate on January 7th, at which time I may need another operation. Spong's words and jars words ring in my head because unlike Faith, I have a belief that God uses other points of view and beliefs in order to challenge and strengthen my own. Yes, I have prayed...and I have gained empathy for disabled and blind people much more than I had. The message of helping others as the essence of Christianity might just be all that there is to it, but I won't throw away my belief in a God of compassion Who interacts with humanity. I have seen too much to ever throw that away. That being said, I will again admit that the methods I want and hope for God to intervene with and use suggest my irrational belief in favoritism. It hurts to say, but why should I be blessed any more than the alcoholic homeless couple whom we had to make leave the store because they were stealing?? Thus, jars basic argument that Biblical Christianity promotes an unrealistic fantasy of a God they make up is true, to some degree.
All true. And it all occurs when religion is used as much more than "a recreational pastime." jar writes: It is largely because people are forced to convert to Islam in some circumstances. There is no forcing done in Christianity apart from peer pressure. ...far more abandon Christianity and adopt Islam after critically evaluating Christianity.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: jar writes: It is largely because people are forced to convert to Islam in some circumstances. There is no forcing done in Christianity apart from peer pressure. ...far more abandon Christianity and adopt Islam after critically evaluating Christianity. Evidence Phat, evidence. Are people forced to become Muslims in China, India, the US, Europe, South East Asia, Canada? What is true is that the major reason for a child to become a Muslim is exactly the same reason that a child becomes a Christian and that is getting born into a Christian family. Edited by jar, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
We are talking about conversions.
About a quarter of adults who were raised Muslim (23%) no longer identify as members of the faith, roughly on par with the share of Americans who were raised Christian and no longer identify with Christianity (22%), according to a new analysis of the 2014 Religious Landscape Study.
Council of Foreign Relations writes: While conversions to Islam are commonplace and widely reported, conversions out of Islam are generally kept more hush-hush. In the West, experts estimate thousands of Muslims switch to Christianity every year but keep their conversions secret for fear of retribution. Converts from Islam, especially those who become involved in Christian ministries, often use assumed names, or only their first names, in order to protect themselves and their families, writes Daveed Gartenstein-Ross, a Washington-based terrorism analyst in Commentary. Lots of the conversions to Christianity are kept quiet, whereas many of the conversions to Islam are done deliberately and openly. (see prisoners converting to islam) Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
If the conversion is kept quiet then we will not have any data to support such claims and so any such claims should simply be disregarded.
But it is interesting that as both Christians and Muslims mature a significant percentage throw the religion away.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.7
|
Why are there any conversions at all? Does one god stop speaking and another start?
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1465 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Why are there any conversions at all? So I'll add my view of this to the mix. Conversion in Christianity is a supernatural thing, not just a choice one makes. The word "conversion" itself implies this, a real change in us. That's what being "born again" or regenerated means. We need to be converted, actually changed in our nature, in order to be suited to the environment of heaven and God's presence, because of the Fall where we lost our spiritual faculty and our spiritual knowledge and our spiritual connection to God. We became mere "flesh" as a result. The spirit we had originally must be regenerated in us. "Flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God, neither does corruption inherit incorruption," it says in 1 Cor 15:52. Being sinners from the Fall we inherit corruption through our flesh, and that has to be changed in order to inherit the perfections of the Kingdom of God. What we get at conversion is called an "earnest" or pledge of the Holy Spirit who will not be given in full until the Rapture, at which time "we shall be changed, in the twinking of an eye, at the last trump..." (1 Cor 15:52). Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Yet the evidence shows that the majority of conversions are to throw religions away. When about one out of four Christians or Muslims simply throw their belief away it might be worthwhile for the religion to look at why it is failing.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
Given all that made up nonsense, how can a conversion away from Christianity to another religion be possible? Which god is speaking the loudest?
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1465 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
It's amazing how such a complete system of thought can be accused of being made up, but you guys have to find something wrong with it.
There is no conversion to any other religion, no actual change as there is in Christianity. People choose other religions but they don't convert in the sense I'm describing. There's only one true God, the God of the Bible. Take it or leave it, Tangle, I'm telling you what I know but you don't have to accept it. You can always make up whatever you want, assume I'm just partisan etc. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024