Charismatic Chaos

Not off hand. The entire necessity for salvation argument hinges on the Original Sin argument. If both are thrown out, there is no need to worry about God, but there is, I would argue, still an intrinsic awareness of right and wrong. Surely doing ones best is not entirely relative, though often culturally varied.My point is this: Assume that I concede that there is no way to prove God and that for the sake of this argument, God is entirely imaginary.

Humans still have an obligation to try and do their very best (loving their neighbor as themselves) in the life that we have.

​

Whether we are judged by an absolute standard or not, we are judged by our own beliefs.

​

Finally, and hypothetically, IF God turns out to exist after all....when we die should we be judged for ignoring Him? (Or just plain never considering that He existed?) Or....rationally, logically, and honestly concluding that he did not exist?

​

My point is that it would be wrong of God to allow these people to be punished. Judgment is an individual thing.(be the judge God or be the judge our own internalized beliefs and morality)

I had to revive this topic! To start with, I don't believe that all expressions of faith are in vain, even if they are silly. Laughter is, after all, a very good medicine! I was watching this video, as well as some of the videos (again) that I brought up earlier in this topic, and have concluded that much of the so called "manifestation" is nothing more than people purposefully forcing themselves to laugh so as to fit in with the "spirit filled exclusive crowd". To be clear, however, I also believe that it is possible for someone to be used as an instrument of God. Examples include listening to someone say something important and profound, confidently, concisely, impact-fully, and with no apparent effort on their part.Critics may then ask how I knew or could prove that it was a manifestation of God, and, truthfully, there would be no way to prove it. I suppose the message should be judged by its content (message) and not by its purported source.(Spirit Led)Benny Hinn actually defended himself on ABC News. I Can't, I saw where you wanted to start a topic on what the Bible says about the Biblical Flood. Do you personally believe that the Bible is without error? (error being defined as less than perfect wisdom, contradictory messages, and having been written and revised by humans who, perhaps, had an agenda.

I used to believe in salvation by Grace and profession (and repentance) yet began to question the reality of this once I saw how many church folks that had been saved (myself included) that continued making the same willful sins and dumb decisions that they had before the washed-in-the-blood experience. Jar makes a point that a God who picks and chooses who will be saved (or at least foreknowingly damned) is evil since foreknowledge erases freewill. Besides, how did this tradition start that states that all scripture is basically inerrant? And that brings up another honest question. Can it be that the Creator of All Seen and Unseen be so limited as to communicate with me only through these scriptures? Is there any allowance for rhema or for Holy Spirit inspired teaching and thought even from other fallible individuals? Why would people have an evil agenda now and yet Moses and the early writings have a pure agenda? I only ask questions to further understanding of God --perhaps He can use you or others at EvC to enlighten me..?Edited by Phat, : additional ponderings...

Its worth it to actually arrive at an understanding of what a Pharisee is. This topic is more concerned with what a charismatic is. I CANT and jar disagree, but to set the record straight, they both argue that salvation is a free gift.Yesterday, I was listening to my audio Bible and it went into the 1st Corinthians. Some folks believe that Christianity is about what you believe, and other folks believe that Christianity is about what you do and who you are in the real world.Some folks believe in the power of the Holy Spirit to change a man from within, while other folks believe that a man was given the ability to distinguish between right and wrong and has a charge and a responsibility to live and act the best way possible.Personally, I believe that both points of view have some merit. I believe that I have a relationship with God, knowable to me through the humanity of His Son, Jesus Christ. I also believe that I have a responsibility to try and do the best that I can each day, though I am aware of the fact that I don't always do this.Edited by Phat, : fixed quote

Hi Buzsaw. I thought that as long as we were discussing TV/Video and Audio preachers that you might be interested in the Pentecostals & Charismatics for peace and justice. Apparently, this group of Christians supports Palestine.They claim to want to support peace between Israel and Palestine.

Richard Roberts (Orals son) was in the news recently:Oral Roberts' son arrested on suspicion of DUI

quote:

---

A breath test showed Roberts' blood alcohol level at .11%, the report says

---

Can we not grant him the same propensity for mistakes as any other human? The only thing that bothers me is that maybe indeed Richard didn't believe what he taught.

quote:

---

Roberts appears on the television show "The Place for Miracles: Your Hour of Healing," according to the Oral Roberts Ministries website.

---

Lets see how he responds to these accusations in the coming days. If he is honest and admits his sin,and volunteers to seek help, I say God bless him. If he makes excuses...well....

quote:

---

Edmonton Healing Service:

​

Richard Roberts: Now, you can tell you had a healing tonight, put your hand up? Look at the hands. Alright, let me get real; let me get real specific with you. Who is it, you had quite a severe back problem, and now all that pain is gone? Wave your hand at me. Where are you? Go ahead, put your hand up high so I can tell. Sir, is it you? Is the pain gone in your back, completely? Pretty severe? Come down here a minute. Brother Roy, bring him up on the platform. Who is it; your shoulder was so bad you could not lift it up, now you have complete freedom? In the red, come down here a minute. Brother Dave, bring her up on the platform. Who is it; you had such pain in your feet and legs? I mean really bad. Was it you? Come on down. Gonna have just a few, because there are hundreds of you. Just make a line right over here brother.

​

Who is it now, suddenly you’re seeing clearly? The cataracts just dissolved. Is it you? Come down here a minute. Who else, you can tell? Just gonna have a few give a testimony, and then I’m gonna lay hands on you. Who’s hearing now? All of a sudden you just got a burst of hearing, it just shot in your ear? Where are you? Wave your hand at me. Your hearing is so clear now. Where is that person? Wave your hand at me. Are you upstairs? Where are you? Your hearing has come back. Where are you? Wave your hand at me. The person, you came with intense pain tonight. Where are you and the pain is gone? Wave your hand at me. The pain is completely gone; wave your hand at me. Come down here a minute mam. Mam, are you out of that wheelchair? She was in a wheelchair. Bring me that wheelchair. Set that wheelchair up here.

---

Do cataracts ever simply dissolve?

Double PostEdited by Thugpreacha, : double post error

Of course, you never have bought into the idea that God allowed Satan to exist only to validate the concept of free will. I agree. Looking back at Spong through my beliefs today, I see that he was more liberal and new age than I like. That he was a retired Episcopal Bishop links him up in my mind to our very own jar, who has steadfastly defended the basic premise that we should throw God away and be the doer ourselves. In such a case, prayer would only serve as an inner meditation reminding ourselves of what we can, should, and will do for others on a daily basis. I had my eye operation for a vitrectomy on November 12th. I found myself unable to see focus out of said eye which has continued to this very day. The Doctor will reevaluate on January 7th, at which time I may need another operation. Spong's words and jars words ring in my head because unlike Faith, I have a belief that God uses other points of view and beliefs in order to challenge and strengthen my own. Yes, I have prayed...and I have gained empathy for disabled and blind people much more than I had. The message of helping others as the essence of Christianity might just be all that there is to it, but I won't throw away my belief in a God of compassion Who interacts with humanity. I have seen too much to ever throw that away. That being said, I will again admit that the methods I want and hope for God to intervene with and use suggest my irrational belief in favoritism. It hurts to say, but why should I be blessed any more than the alcoholic homeless couple whom we had to make leave the store because they were stealing?? Thus, jars basic argument that Biblical Christianity promotes an unrealistic fantasy of a God they make up is true, to some degree. It is largely because people are forced to convert to Islam in some circumstances. There is no forcing done in Christianity apart from peer pressure.

We are talking about conversions. Lots of the conversions to Christianity are kept quiet, whereas many of the conversions to Islam are done deliberately and openly. (see prisoners converting to islam)

You say you are a believer. Have you thrown anything (or anyone_) significant away?

What specifically clued you into the worthlessness of the product? Was it the Deity Himself or was it other believers being hypocritical?

God, if God exists needs no defending from me. All I can do is to attempt to understand why I embrace an admittedly irrational belief. Much of Biblical Theology is irrational from a human-centric perspective. But a few questions:

Why is the concept of God in general irrational?

Why are so many millions of people somehow deceived where ringo of Saskatchewan one day concludes that critical thinking and evidence suddenly appear so shiningly logical and obvious? Seems to me that you preferred believing in something that you could somewhat fully understand.

​

I will admit that the second point only applies to me personally in that I have a hunch that the ultimate answer will not be so stunningly obvious. It was designed to be a mystery. Either humans are en masse deceived pro or con.

---

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha

​

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

​

As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

Time to revisit this argument.So the legend goes, there were three archangels. Michael, Gabrial, and Lucifer.
You know the story.(The dogmatic version, at any rate)Why is the concept of angels so glaringly illogical? And why is the idea that one of them would decide to drink his own Kool-Aid rather than the corporate version so preposterous? He was like you. He decided to think for himself rather than listen to the Boss. It was designed to happen.

Every thought of our imagination is human. Take Star Trek. It inspired a generation of scientists, even though it was a fantasy. If anyone can imagine a Klingon they can surely imagine a Spirit Being who sends an anthropomorphized rep to the planet. You need to stop convincing yourself that its simply mythological. Much better than thinking we have just evolved as animals out for a long generational trek to do our best at becoming of higher intelligence by rejecting anything our little science kits cant prove. This universe and its possibilities are so much greater than our capacity to conceive of. And dont forget...without imagination, half of the inventions would never have yet become reality.