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Author | Topic: Charismatic Chaos | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Theodoric Member Posts: 9140 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.3 |
it reads like history
It reads nothing like history. I read a lot of history, my academic training is in history. The bible reads like no history. It read like fiction. It reads more like Tolkein and C.S.Lewis than history. Lewis was not a historian. He taught literature not history. If you have an reason to think that Lewis was a historian please present it.Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Apologetics seeks to defend the Christian faith. Recently, I read a good book (or am reading now) called The Logic of God. Basic Apolojartics says that it is ok to throw God away.
jar writes: Yes Phat, all the God(s) and god(s) that have even been discussed in the Bible or any other sacred text as well as what you call "Mainstream Christianity". I understand that GOD, if GOD exists is not any of the God(s) or god(s) found in the Bible or in any of the other religions. I understand that Christianity is MY chosen path but not "THE" path. I understand that the God Characters in the Bible are all flawed imaginations of simple humans. Apologetics begs to differ. From Chapter 6: quote:thus in the case of Buddhism, all agree. What about Christianity though? quote: This apologetic defense is to me hardly snake oil. I know that you never liked the idea of Jesus paying the penalty for us...as if it were somehow cheating. On this note, however, I must go with the apologetics rather than the apolojartics.
Critics would accuse you of marketing a Christianity without Christ. Are you guilty? Is Jesus any more than a character that we can learn examples from?
Col 1:19-23 writes: For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, 20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross. 21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight -- 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.NKJV John 17:1-5 writes: Note: That they "may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent". Key concept: That we should know God through Jesus and by accepting Jesus as more than simply a character in a book. Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: "Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, 2 as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. 3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. 4 I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. 5 And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.NKJV Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
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jar Member (Idle past 414 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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All just word salad with no value or information.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.7
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Pure contentless blather.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1465 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
C. S. Lewis says it does not read like fiction, and he should know.
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jar Member (Idle past 414 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Why should he know Faith?
Stop and think about the number of histories of talking snakes.
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9140 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.3 |
Supply the Lewis quote so it can be examined in context. Lewis was not a historian. His view on history are actually not relevant.
Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
All just word salad with no value or information. Easy for you to say. I've noticed that when you cant frame an argument the way that YOU want it to read. I noticed the online definition of word salad: Wiki writes: Really? You accuse me of mental illness? A word salad is a "confused or unintelligible mixture of seemingly random words and phrases", most often used to describe a symptom of a neurological or mental disorder. The words may or may not be grammatically correct, but are semantically confused to the point that the listener cannot extract any meaning from them.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
To all of you academicians: One does not necessarily need a degree to be relevant. A Holocaust survivor, for example, would likely be more relevant to a source than a WW II Historian.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9140 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.3
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A holocaust survivor is a more relevant source for their experience, but a historian that studied that period would be an actual expert on the holocaust and that period. Experts are experts for a reason. A holocaust survivor is not an expert on the holocaust. They are on expert on their own personal experience. Nothing more. This is a very silly argument.
C.S Lewis was not an expert on History or historical texts. Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Theodoric writes: True. But he was an expert on his own personal experience with Christianity and his subsequent left-brain attempt at explaining it. To you, facts are all that count. In the case of a mystical and/or lifechanging experience, the creative literary side of us comes out more than our analytical side. C.S Lewis was not an expert on History or historical texts. To be fair, the creative side of us can also be more deceptive. One must weigh all of the evidence from those who have actually experienced religious transformations or epiphanies. Or would you discredit all such as hearsay?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
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jar Member (Idle past 414 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Learn to read.
You presented what you considered to be intelligible quotations of some relevance to the topic. and example is below.
quote: It is a classic example of word salad; the words are intelligible and it is pretty much grammatically correct but it is also totally irrelevant to the topic of reality. It begins with a truly silly truism, that Jesus is indispensable to Christianity. Of course it is but in exactly the same sense as Buddha is indispensable to Buddhism. You even quoted the relevant reasoning and logic and in fact I have presented you the exact same argument related to Christianity a Brazillion times over the years. Even if Jesus was simply a tale told around the campfires the lessons and message is still relevant and important. But back to the word salad example. After that first truism all of the rest is simply the Snake Oil Salesmans Medicine Wagon Spiel. It is the standard sales pitch of the Get Outta Hell marketeer. It is also yet another example of dogma that is directly contradicted by the Bible itself; the Jesus was without sin absurdity. We have been over examples of Jesus sinning found in the Bible and just as with examples of God being unsure, no0t all powerful, confused and in error, they really are there and you and I have gone over such examples many times. Your standard answer has been "It is impossible for God to be ..." regardless of what was actually written. I have not yet accused you of mental illness but it would be wise for you to at least critically examine the evidence. When you cannot see that your quotes in support of your position are pointless and have absolutely no meaning beyond truisms and echoing the Christianity made in YOUR image, when you deny the reality of what is actually written in the most basic foundation of the religion you claim can you say that is not an indication of mental illness? Can you not see that everything in the quote you chose was simply an unsupported assertion that the Christianity being marketed is in some way special apart from the beautiful ideas and noble ethics. But as the quotation related to the Buddha said, "If the Buddha was a myth, they said, it did not matter at all. Why? Because Buddhism should be judged as an abstract philosophyas a system of living. Whether its concepts originated with the Buddha is irrelevant. As an aside, I think the Buddha himself would have concurred. Knowing that his death was imminent, he beseeched his followers not to focus on him but to remember his teachings." and I would echo that if Jesus was a myth, it does not matter at all. Why? Because Christianity should be judged as an abstract philosophyas a system of living. Whether its concepts originated with Jesus is irrelevant. As an aside, I think the Jesus himself would have concurred. Knowing that his death was imminent, he beseeched his followers not to focus on him but to remember his teachings. It is called the Great Commission and we are all called to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, comfort the sorrowful, shelter the homeless, defend the weak and do as we are told to by Jesus in the stories. Edited by jar, : applin spallin
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9140 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.3 |
So you agree with me that he is solely an expert on his own personal experience and admit your analogy with the holocaust survivor was silly and did not support any of your arguments.
Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1465 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
The point, Thugsy, and Theodoric, was that C.S. Lewis was an EXPERT ON LITERATURE, ON FICTION. IT was on that basis that he said that the Bible is unequivocally NOT FICTION. And we don't hve to doubt that he also had extensive knowledge of history too, it would be silly to think that an Oxford professor wouldn't.
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jar Member (Idle past 414 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
And you have still not presented any evidence that he said that or the context at the time.
Sorry Faithy but CS Lweis was not so stupid as to think much of the Bible was not just fiction and folk tales.
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