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Author Topic:   Did the Flood really happen?
dwise1
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Posts: 5949
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 1456 of 2370 (869229)
12-26-2019 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 1452 by Faith
12-26-2019 7:46 AM


Re: Depositions
Geo column not confined to disparate bodies of water, it extends over thousands of square miles straight and flat, no shape of curved bottoms of bodies of water.
How could you possibly think that you could make such an absolute claim when the almost ALL of those layers are still buried OUT OF YOUR SIGHT?
To the contrary, seismic mappings of strata do indeed show the shapes of buried lake bottoms and rivers as we have shown to you repeatedly and which you persist in denying for no valid reason! In addition, we have also shown you cross-sections of buried streams and rivers which have been exposed and which you persist in denying for no valid reason!
, your denial ought to offend even you.
Why do you persist in accusing that image in the mirror? We keep trying to tell you that that image is you, not us. Yet you persist in denying even that.

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 Message 1452 by Faith, posted 12-26-2019 7:46 AM Faith has replied

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1457 of 2370 (869238)
12-26-2019 5:25 PM
Reply to: Message 1456 by dwise1
12-26-2019 12:16 PM


Re: Depositions
Way back in Message 448 HBD put up a few diagrams from a book of his that show four of the "time periods" as sedimentary rocks spreading across the entire North American continent. That is ONE of the places I get this idea.
Another source is a post here that I don't remember unfortunately that quoted some expert as showing that cores all across the Midwest to West USA show the same strata to some great depth. Certainly wish I could find that. The Mountains of course interfere and to the East the tectonic disturbances of the land through the Appalachians also interfere.
Your seismic info contradicts all the strata ever illustrated.
ABE: Trying to track down the cores sources. Find that I refer to it in Message 276 so I'll keep looking further back.
Think I've found it: Message 275
I see I also mention it in Message 279
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1458 of 2370 (869241)
12-26-2019 6:04 PM
Reply to: Message 1456 by dwise1
12-26-2019 12:16 PM


Evidence from core samples in the Midwest
I'm amazed: I didn't expect to find the source of that quote but I did. ThinAirDesigns posted it in Message 275 on a thread titled "The Great Creationist Fossil Failure" as an answer to something George McReady Price had written, but he doesn't give the source that I can see. Here's the quote though, by a Harold Clark, whose info seems to oppose something Price said but gives even better evidence for the Flood:
Sound almost exactly like the position of one George McReady Price when Harold Clark, one of his prized students got off his ass and went to the field to compare what Price said against the evidence. Clark wrote back :
The rocks do lie in a much more definite sequence than we have ever allowed. The statements made in your book, The New Geology, do not harmonize with the conditions in the field. All over the Midwest the rocks lie in great sheets extending over hundreds of miles, in regular order. Thousands of well cores prove this. In East Texas alone are 25,000 deep wells. Probably well over 100,000 wells in the Midwest give data that has been studied and correlated. The science has become a very exact one. Millions of dollars are spent in drilling, with the paleontological findings of the company geologists taken as the basis for the work. The sequence of the microscopic fossils in the strata is remarkably uniform. The same sequence is found in America, Europe, and anywhere that detailed studies have been made. This oil geology has opened up the depths of the earth in a way that we never dreamed of twenty years ago.
So this is what I've been picturing for years: extremely extensive rock layers spreading huge distances across the continent, at least the N. American continent but others as well. NOT strata found in lake or river basins but strata straight and deep across the land, not contained in small bodies of water. Apparently Price thought something else. It would be good to dig up the sources Thin Air is referring to. Meanwhile so much for your seismic data. Just the usual attempt to obfuscate the factds.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1459 of 2370 (869243)
12-26-2019 6:24 PM
Reply to: Message 1457 by Faith
12-26-2019 5:25 PM


Evidence from Cores: Hey Coragyps!
Some of you people need to get honest for a change and stop trying to muddy up this discussion. There is NO evidence whatever that any of the strata of the known Geological Column, abstract or not, local or not, has ever been shown to have sloping sides like a lake or a river bottom. They are ALL straight and flat, straighter and flatter than any lake bottom or riverbed, and cover hundreds to thousands of square miles, a lot more area than the biggest lakes known, both the marine and the terrestrial strata. Your illustrations of water bodies are utterly irrelevant and serve as nothing but obfuscation of the facts of the Geo Column itself. And the seismic data is also obviously irrelevant.
Hey Coragyps: Your field is oil, right? You know about the geology of oil country, you must know about this core information I refer to above, since it was necessary for finding oil, yes? Why are you taking the side of these obfuscators? Yeah I know you like the ancient earth crap, but look at the data about the strata itself.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1460 of 2370 (869244)
12-26-2019 6:42 PM
Reply to: Message 1457 by Faith
12-26-2019 5:25 PM


Here's HBD's post again with the diagrams of No. America
There is plenty in what HBD says about this that I disagree with but I'll have to get to that in the next post. Meanwhile I thought it best to copy out his entire post with all his comments nevertheless. The diagrams certainly support what I'm saying against what others in this thread are arguing against me. Yes they are marine deposits but they are extremely extensive. I'll have to check on HBD's linked source to see if there are more diagrams.
Forum: Geology and the Great Flood
Topic: Why the Flood Never Happened
Subtitle: Re: Palouse Canyon -- what extreme flood cascade flow does
God trumps it all. Too bad some Christians give in so easily.
I believe you have created a false dichotomy for yourself. For you, it boils down to either the Bible is wrong or the evidence is wrong. But perhaps there is a third option... remember that the Bible (specifically Genesis in context of this discussion) was not written to twenty-first century, scientifically knowledgeable people, but to bronze age nomads who had just left Egypt and who God intended to make into a great nation, the nation he promised Abraham. Yes, the Bible was written for us but not to us. You must understand the Bible in the context of its original audience. I won't go into it any further here, but suffice it to say that the third option might be that you simply misunderstand what the original intention of the passages were. If that position is correct then both the physical evidence and the Word of God can be true. It doesn't have to either / or. No dichotomy needed.
Back to the topic at hand, I found these charts in An Introduction to Geology. Its kinda old (1921 ?) so I'm sure more evidence has been added since then but he has some good illustrations spanning the time period we are talking about (particularly the unconformity between the Muav limestone and the Redwall limestone. (hatched areas = known deposits, black areas = exposed areas)
Now for the purposes of this exercise, there is no need to assign dates to any of the layers, simply to recognize that they were laid down sequentially and to note the pattern of distribution. The order is:Cambrian (there is not a distribution map available in this book), Ordovician, Silurian, Devonian, Mississippian.
Ordovician:
Notice there is a large circular area near the beginning of the canyon that has no Ordovician deposits but all around it there are? What can you conclude from that? Consider that we are talking about that area being uplifted at some point in the past. Does that area look like it might be higher than the surrounding areas (that were seas)? Could that be why there were no Ordovician deposits - because the land was above sea level?
Silurian:
Notice the large area north and south of the GC that have no Silurian rocks?
Devonian:
Notice that there are Devonian deposits in the upper GC area but they aren't extensive. Further down into the canyon, they are more widely distributed. Does the distribution of rock in this layer look similar to the Silurian period but with more area under water? Could this be due to a rise in sea level?
Mississippian (Carboniferous):
Notice how extensive Carboniferous deposits are in North America. Most of the US and Mexico were underwater.
Muav limestone is Cambrian. Ordovician and Silurian rocks are missing from the formation. Devonian is represented by Tempe Butte formation. And Mississippian is represented by Redwall limestone.
Consider that the layers were laid down while they were under water (they are sedimentary rock after all). What do these distribution charts tell us about what the land was like during the times when the layers were being laid down?
Bottom line is this ... How can a global flood explain these patterns of distribution? And how could that explanation do a better job of explaining this pattern than deposits made sequentially over an extended period of time (doesn't even need to be millions of years)?
Another point. I live in Michigan and we are experiencing glacial rebound that has been measured to be up to 15 inches per century in the northern Great Lakes region! that is more than 1/8" a year! I've never even noticed it. No bedrock cracking, no problem with our rivers flowing. Uplift is not as big a problem as you think. Yea, if it lifts 10 feet in a year - that would be a problem. But not a couple inches a century. Our world is pretty flexible.
HBD

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1457 by Faith, posted 12-26-2019 5:25 PM Faith has replied

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1461 of 2370 (869245)
12-26-2019 6:49 PM
Reply to: Message 1460 by Faith
12-26-2019 6:42 PM


Re: Here's HBD's post again with the diagrams of No. America
Hey Climate Change people: What's "glacial rebound?" HBD says they were experiencing it in Michigan when he wrote that post.
Extensive deposits are GREAT evidence for a worldwide Flood, and it's hard to understand why anyone would think otherwise. And would there be a problem if they aren't completely continuous? We're talking about sediments carried in water after all, there's only so much of it, it runs out, it deposits in one place and not another, what is the problem?
In ANY CASE THESE DIAGRAMS CONTRADICT THE LAKE BED AND RIVER BED FARCICAL ATTEMPTS AT EXPLANATION OF THE GEO COLUMN. THESE *ARE* THE STRATA OF THE GEO COLUMN, THEY ARE *NOT* CONFINED TO SMALL BODIES OF WATER.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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 Message 1463 by jar, posted 12-26-2019 7:43 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1462 of 2370 (869246)
12-26-2019 6:55 PM
Reply to: Message 1455 by RAZD
12-26-2019 12:13 PM


Re: Depositions, and Lake Bonneville
As I have hypothesized many times in the past, Lake Bonnevilie is one of the large lakes we know existed at one time, including such as Lahontan and Missoula and a few others, that must have been left after the Flood for some period of time before draining away, perhaps as the result of natural dams breaking under the tectonic forces that were very active after the Flood. The famous "Bad Lands" of the NW that show serpentine drainage patterns lined by a depth of about three sedimentary layers, look to me like the drainage pattern from Lake Missoula.
In any case, even these large lakes are nowhere near the size we know to be the extent of the Geo Column strata, and there is NO EVIDENCE WHATEVER of the sloping edges in those strata that occur in lake beds or river beds as you are all trying to pretend.
HEY, I'M WAITING FOR AN HONEST CLEAR-EYED POSTER TO SHOW UP AND SEE WHAT'S REALLY GOING ON HERE AND CALL "FOUL" ON THESE FALSE ARGUMENTS AGAINST THE FLOOD. WHERE ARE YOU, HONEST POSTERS? FORGET THE ARGUMENTS ABOUT HOW IT *COULD* HAVE HAPPENED THIS OR THAT WAY CONSISTENT WITH ESTABLISHMENT GEOLOGY. SO WHAT? IF YOU FORCE YOUR BRAIN TO DO CARTWHEELS AND STRETCH INTO PRETZELS IT WILL DO THEM FOR YOU BUT THAT ISN'T GOING TO GIVE THE HONEST ASSESSMENT CALLED FOR HERE.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 1463 of 2370 (869250)
12-26-2019 7:43 PM
Reply to: Message 1461 by Faith
12-26-2019 6:49 PM


Basics Faith, Basics
Basics Fait, Basics. Glacial rebound was a great subject back in the seventh or eighth grade scince class.
It's real simple. The weight of a glacier was sufficient to compress the surface under it. Take that weight away and over time the surface rebounds.
BUT, and try to pay attention Faith. We only see Glacial Rebound where there was glaciers.
Water is actually denser than ice.
Had the world been covered in water high enough to cover mountains then we should see Flood Rebound at every point on the Earth. We don't.
So Glacial Rebound is simply another nail in the coffin of utterly sill idea that either of the Biblical Floods ever happened.
AbE:
A cubic foot of water weighs slightly more than 60 pounds. The Biblical Flood myths have the flood covering the mountain. If we assume we are only talking about smaller mountains, those like those found in Turkey, the mountains of Ararat then we are looking at mountain 2 or 3 miles high. That would mean a pressure of three to almost five MILLION pounds per square foot on every land area.
Again, if the Biblical Floods had ever happened we would have to see evidence of Flood Rebound many, many times greater than Glacial Rebound at ever point of the Earth.
We don't.
So neither flood ever happened.
Edited by jar, : see AbE: baby steps towards basics

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

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 Message 1461 by Faith, posted 12-26-2019 6:49 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1464 by Faith, posted 12-26-2019 8:03 PM jar has replied
 Message 1469 by Minnemooseus, posted 12-26-2019 10:56 PM jar has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1464 of 2370 (869252)
12-26-2019 8:03 PM
Reply to: Message 1463 by jar
12-26-2019 7:43 PM


Off topic
I had just read up on glacial rebound when I saw your post. It doesn't belong on this thread, but it also doesn't have much to say about anything. The land rebounds or rises, the sea level rises, but it belongs on the thread about climate change so I'm not going to talk about it here. The subject here is how the strata of the geo column were NOT formed in isolated bodies of water. If you have nothing to say about that then take glacial rebound to the other thread,. Thank you.
Oh but there would be no Flood rebound because it drained into the vaccume left by the fountains of the deep beneath the sea floor when the water started rising. That's the theory of the moment. You might try to keep up, jar. I would also suggest that the rising of the land from the rebound would go a long way to counteracting the rising of the sea water.
But again I'm not going to address this rabbit trail here. I'm sorry I mentioned it at all. If you want to pursue it take it to the other thread of ir you persist in your folly I'll take it there.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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 Message 1463 by jar, posted 12-26-2019 7:43 PM jar has replied

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 Message 1465 by jar, posted 12-26-2019 8:21 PM Faith has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 1465 of 2370 (869253)
12-26-2019 8:21 PM
Reply to: Message 1464 by Faith
12-26-2019 8:03 PM


(Re: Off topic) Learn to actually read the topic title Faith!
Faith writes:
Oh but there would be no Flood rebound because it drained into the vaccume left by the fountains of the deep beneath the sea floor when the water started rising. That's the theory of the moment. You might try to keep up, jar. I would also suggest that the rising of the land from the rebound would go a long way to counteracting the rising of the sea water.
More utter nonsense that is refuted by reality as always.
Regardless of which imaginary made up addition to the Biblical Flood Myths you create they remain refuted by reality. No matter where you store your imaginary water it would still reduce the pressure on the surface of the land (and even the sea floors as well). And we do not see any evidence of such a rebound.
The topic Faith is "Did the Flood really happen?" and so when you introduce evidence that totally disproves any world wide flood like the evidence of Glacial Rebound which can be measure and Flood Rebounds that simply does not exist it really is relevant.
Neither of the Biblical Floods ever happened and ALL of the evidence supports that conclusion.
Edited by jar, : fix sub-title

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1466 of 2370 (869254)
12-26-2019 8:32 PM
Reply to: Message 1465 by jar
12-26-2019 8:21 PM


Since you don't know how to read or think, take the topic where it belongs
...

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 Message 1465 by jar, posted 12-26-2019 8:21 PM jar has replied

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 Message 1467 by jar, posted 12-26-2019 8:46 PM Faith has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 1467 of 2370 (869255)
12-26-2019 8:46 PM
Reply to: Message 1466 by Faith
12-26-2019 8:32 PM


Re: Since you don't know how to read or think, take the topic where it belongs
The topic is "Did the Flood really happen?"
If either of the Biblical Flood myths ever actually happened we MUST see rebound at every spot on Earth greater than what we see from Glacial Rebound. Remember ice is less dense than water; ice floats in water.
The undeniable fact that we do NOT see any evidence of Flood Rebound is conclusive evidence that neither Biblical Flood ever happened.
That seems relevant to the topic "Did the Flood really happen?" Don't you agree?

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

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 Message 1466 by Faith, posted 12-26-2019 8:32 PM Faith has replied

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1468 of 2370 (869257)
12-26-2019 10:50 PM
Reply to: Message 1467 by jar
12-26-2019 8:46 PM


Re: Since you don't know how to read or think, take the topic where it belongs
The topic WE ARE DISCUSSING is whether the geo column could have been formed in small bodies of water. That is what *I* am discussing, and my answer to Flood Rebound I already gave anyway, take it or leave it that's my answer.

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Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3945
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 1469 of 2370 (869258)
12-26-2019 10:56 PM
Reply to: Message 1463 by jar
12-26-2019 7:43 PM


Isostatic rebound after flood???
Again, if the Biblical Floods had ever happened we would have to see evidence of Flood Rebound many, many times greater than Glacial Rebound at ever point of the Earth.
Oh really? Wouldn't this highly hypothetical rebound be the same everywhere? How would you detect this? What is this evidence we could see?
Moose
Edited by Minnemooseus, : Change subtitle.

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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17825
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 1470 of 2370 (869259)
12-27-2019 2:14 AM
Reply to: Message 1459 by Faith
12-26-2019 6:24 PM


Re: Evidence from Cores: Hey Coragyps!
quote:
Some of you people need to get honest for a change and stop trying to muddy up this discussion.
Oh look, unfounded personal attacks. Coming from someone who posts complete nonsense and then objects to anyone talking about it. From someone who boasts about being regenerated by a conversion to Christianity, no less.
quote:
There is NO evidence whatever that any of the strata of the known Geological Column, abstract or not, local or not, has ever been shown to have sloping sides like a lake or a river bottom.
Now that is an attempt to muddy the waters. You’ve seen river channels in the geological column, with sloping sides. And nobody claims that a river channel would be an extensive deposit in itself. Big rivers can have multiple channels (especially at a delta) and tributaries but that isn’t a single channel covering a wide area. The river’s food plain would extend over a much wider area, but that obviously wouldn’t be a river channel.
quote:
They are ALL straight and flat, straighter and flatter than any lake bottom or riverbed, and cover hundreds to thousands of square miles, a lot more area than the biggest lakes known, both the marine and the terrestrial strata
False. Strata can be of limited extent.
quote:
Hey Coragyps: Your field is oil, right? You know about the geology of oil country, you must know about this core information I refer to above, since it was necessary for finding oil, yes? Why are you taking the side of these obfuscators? Yeah I know you like the ancient earth crap, but look at the data about the strata itself.
Because he knows that you are telling falsehoods.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1459 by Faith, posted 12-26-2019 6:24 PM Faith has not replied

  
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