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Author | Topic: Charismatic Chaos | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Theodoric Member Posts: 9140 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.3 |
Provide the sources that show him claiming this so we can examine the context. And no he was not an expert on history. I fail to see why you think the claim is helpful or relevant.
Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9140 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.3
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Seemingly C.S. Lewis did not agree with you.
C. S. Lewis on Inerrancy, Inspiration, and Historicity of Scripture
quote: quote: quote: Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1464 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
So he didn't know how to judge some parts of the Bible. The main point still stands. He knew most of it wasn't fiction but history.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17825 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2
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quote: In other words his expertise only counts if he agrees with you. Maybe you should learn intellectual honesty. If only to avoid shooting yourself in the foot like this. Especially when you don’t even have a quote to support your point.
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jar Member (Idle past 414 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Faith writes: So he didn't know how to judge some parts of the Bible. The main point still stands. He knew most of it wasn't fiction but history. No one has ever questioned the fact that some parts of the Bible reflect actual history even though it is pretty much a fanciful and fictitious account. There were twelve Jewish tribes. There were two City States of Judah and Israel. There were periods when the Hebrews were a Theocratic people and periods when they were Monarchies. There is evidence that there were Jews in Egypt but then Egypt was a major cultural center and there were peoples from all over the Mediterranean there. But there is no evidence there was a Garden of Eden. That is pure fiction. There is no evidence of the Conquest of Canaan. That is pure fiction. There is no evidence of the Exodus. That is pure fiction. Job and Jonah and Cain and Able and Sodom and Gomorrah are all fiction. But that does not mean they are without value.
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9140 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.3 |
So you admit you were lying for Jesus? You made these outlandish claims about what C.S. Lewis said and you have absolutely know evidence to back up the claims. You have hit a new low even for you.
No one can trust anything you say, because your claims are rife with lies and dishonesty. I know you do not wonder why no one trusts you. You know why. You are an admitted troll that will say anything to support your viewpoint. You believe that lying for Jesus is a just and right thing to do. I wish I could say it amazes me that someone that claims such a moral high ground resorts so easily to such amoral behavior, but alas it does not, it is par for the course when dealing with fundies. Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1464 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
You're a little too....shall we say "generous" ? .with your accusations of lying. I remember Lewis, in "Mere Christianity" I believe, arguing with the modernists who called the Bible fiction, that he knew fiction and the Bible was not. I remember it as a blanket statement.
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9140 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.3 |
Amazing that you cannot present us with that quote.
Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9140 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.3 |
For every Lewis quote fundies think supports their view, there are many more that do not.
Here is a good site that goes through Lewis's non-fundie writings. Unlike Faith the person who wrote this uses actual quotes and gives the original source material.CS LEWIS – The most beloved heretic – The Reluctant Skeptic Here are a couple that are especially illuminating'
quote: quote: quote: quote: quote: Lewis did not believe that the bible was inerrant. Though he was a very fervent christian he believed in evolution and that the people that wrote the bible and the Jesus character were fallible people. Still waiting on the quotes and sources that support Faith's claims.Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie? |
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jar Member (Idle past 414 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined:
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Faith, even if there actually was such a quote from CS Lewis, it would mean little since everyone can look directly at what was actually written and see that the concept that the Bible is all historical is just nonsense. As I pointed out back in Message 275 ...
quote:
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PaulK Member Posts: 17825 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: Please explain why something you think Lewis said is better than actual quotes. You tell us that Lewis’ opinion is worthless because he didn’t know how to judge parts of the Bible, But you give us no reason to think that his judgement is any better with regard to the rest - nor can you even confirm that he really did say that. (I believe I remember the quote and he was only talking about the gospels - yet Matthew’s nativity story is pretty clearly fiction).
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9140 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.3 |
I just finished reading "Mere Christianity". What a painful slog through nothingness.
I could find nothing in there that resembles anything close to what you claim. Do you really think we will not examine your claims. After I finished reading it I did a word search to see if I missed something in my reading. I searched, history, fiction and bible. There was nothing that resembles your claims. Care to try again? Care to retract the claim? Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Phat writes:
What specifically clued you into the worthlessness of the product?It wasn't one flash of inspiration like you guys seem to want. It was years of mind-numbing stupidity. OK...stupidity like how? That original (or inborn) sin is stupid? The evidence is pretty clear that humans by nature are always looking out for #1. We can argue the point, however.
Phat writes:
Was it the Deity Himself...What deity? If somebody claims there's an all-powerful deity and a dangerous "enemy", why would I believe anything they say? The reason I believe it is because I felt it from both entities. While wise enough to know I cannot get away with saying the devil made me do it, I recognize my inner nature somewhat well by now.
ringo writes: Deep down I question a lot. Rarely do I doubt, unless I find something unfair and have prayed about it repeatedly. And even then, I will admit that having two spirit beings is helpful. If its yes, I praise God. If its no, I curse satan.
It's the stupidity of the theology that bothers me. (And I think that deep down you must know how stupid the theology is because you consistently refuse to defend it.) Phat writes:
God, if God exists needs no defending from me.That's the kind of bullshit that drove me away from Christianity.
How do you expect me to "defend" God? It makes much more sense for an uncaused first cause to be God than it does simply chemicals. The whole reason Intelligent Design was named as such is because of this.
Phat writes:
Why is the concept of God in general irrational?ringo writes: The absence of evidence does not automatically equate to evidence of absence. You seem to think that reality is "founded" on human discovery and verification. Evidence is great for what its worth....in material terms. Evidence can verify your chemicals. Evidence cannot verify a spiritual realm. I think that deep down you dismiss the possibility of a spiritual realm because you can't put a timestamp of Evidence on it.
I wouldn't say its irrational. I'd say it's unfounded in reality.ringo writes: "Many are called yet few are chosen. Narrow is the path to righteousness and few find it. Broad is the path towards independence...
You should ask yourself the honest question: Why do so many millions of people disagree with your theology? Phat writes:
...where ringo of Saskatchewan one day concludes that critical thinking and evidence suddenly appear so shiningly logical and obvious?Critical thinking and evidence work. They produced the computer you're looking at, the car you drive, etc. Yes, they produce material well being. We are talking about the realm of the mind and philosophy.
ringo writes: Some things have left a mystery for now. We don't understand multiple universes, but there is some hypothetical evidence that they could exist. Perhaps since we have no math formula to allow God to be properly hypothetical, you simply threw the concept away.
Why would you prefer believing in something you don't understand? Phat writes:
Why is the concept of angels so glaringly illogical?The idea of a good God creating evil angels is glaringly stupid. Is the idea of a "good" God creating evil (or the possibility of evil) illogical as well? I have an argument for that which you may have heard a bazillion times.
Phat writes:
And why is the idea that one of them would decide to drink his own Kool-Aid rather than the corporate version so preposterous?Because he would have known from the beginning that he couldn't win. How many times have you seen participants line up in a race with Carl Lewis and then all decide they can't win?
Phat writes:
He was like you. He decided to think for himself rather than listen to the Boss.ringo writes: So what led you to think that God didn't exist? Seems a bit as if we replaced Him with ourselves. Of course. Always, always, always think for yourself. Always. Always. Always. How can you even dispute that? Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
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ringo Member (Idle past 432 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Not really. We feed our children. We take care of the old and sick.
The evidence is pretty clear that humans by nature are always looking out for #1. Phat writes:
Well, it would be stupid to create imperfect humans and then blame them for being imperfect. And it's stupid to believe that God is going to "save" us from Himself.
OK...stupidity like how? That original (or inborn) sin is stupid? Phat writes:
Your feelings can't be trusted.
The reason I believe it is because I felt it from both entities. Phat writes:
No it doesn't.
It makes much more sense for an uncaused first cause to be God than it does simply chemicals. Phat writes:
And Intelligent Design is really, really stupid. It's a creationist scam - and you're about two inches from becoming a full-blown creationist as crazy as Faith.
The whole reason Intelligent Design was named as such is because of this. Phat writes:
It is.
You seem to think that reality is "founded" on human discovery and verification. Phat writes:
That's because you define your "spiritual realm" in that way. The problem with it being "beyond evidence" is that it's then categorized along with everything else that is unevidenced - the Tooth Fairy, unicorns, the Flintsones.... Without evidence, you can't distinguish silly, childish stories from anything else.
Evidence is great for what its worth....in material terms. Evidence can verify your chemicals. Evidence cannot verify a spiritual realm. Phat writes:
It isn't deep down. It's right on the surface and in plain English. I reject your God for the same reason you reject the Tooth Fairy and unicorns and the Flintstones and Zeus.
I think that deep down you dismiss the possibility of a spiritual realm because you can't put a timestamp of Evidence on it. Phat writes:
First, you might try quoting that passage honestly: ringo writes:
"Many are called yet few are chosen. Narrow is the path to righteousness and few find it. Broad is the path towards independence... You should ask yourself the honest question: Why do so many millions of people disagree with your theology?quote:I don't know where you get the idea that independence is akin to destruction. What translation are you using? Second, you might try looking at the conrtext, e.g. the next verse: quote:That would be your apologists. And it would also be you and Faith. Phat writes:
Do you want to think that through again? Critical thinking - or any other kind of thinking - is in the realm of the mind.
ringo writes:
Yes, they produce material well being. We are talking about the realm of the mind and philosophy. Critical thinking and evidence work. They produced the computer you're looking at, the car you drive, etc. Phat writes:
And the Tooth Fairy and unicorns and the Flintstones and Zeus. Why do you make one exception?
Perhaps since we have no math formula to allow God to be properly hypothetical, you simply threw the concept away. Phat writes:
Of course. Yes = no is illogical.
Is the idea of a "good" God creating evil (or the possibility of evil) illogical as well? Phat writes:
Pretty often. I, for one couldn't beat Carl Lewis and wouldn't try. Because he would have known from the beginning that he couldn't win.How many times have you seen participants line up in a race with Carl Lewis and then all decide they can't win? But why do you lower your God to just another participant? There are certainly people who could beat Carl Lewis today. Do you really want to make your God somebody who could be beaten by Satan tomorrow?
Phat writes:
Well, we're pretty sure that we ourselves exist. And we're pretty sure that we have to do things ourselves because God isn't doing them for us. So there's no practical reason to think that God exists. So what led you to think that God didn't exist? Seems a bit as if we replaced Him with ourselves."If you can keep your head when all about you Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...." -- Rudyard Kipling
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
ringo writes: OK, I'll buy that. I've experienced enough to *know* that there is another realm but not enough to verify what that realm is. I naturally attached its meaning to the dogma. Without evidence, you can't distinguish silly, childish stories from anything else. Evil was created by God. We don't know why, but since He claims we can avoid it, we try our best usually. The fact that we sometimes allow it is a clue to this puzzle. God is good. Not "complete" as jar suggests. That's simply too threatening. Which is another clue. Satan only exists because God gave him the right to rebel. Apparently the whole concept of free will vs authority is being tested. Humans are the product of our genetics and our decisions.
The problem with it being "beyond evidence" is that it's then categorized along with everything else that is unevidenced - the Tooth Fairy, unicorns, the Flintstones... Without evidence, you can't distinguish silly, childish stories from anything else. The problem here is that God is God before humans even were. Thus, we cannot limit God as we do our other unevidenced creations. God is a human creation and yet not a human creation. IF God exists, He came first.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
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