I've emphasized time and time and time again that I do not scoff at or ignore His message. I simply give you an argument that He is just as important in the grand scheme as His message is.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness. ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
Abdu Murray? Really? A Ravi Zacharias acolyte? Really? I have repeatedly shown that Ravi Zacharias is a known and admitted liar, cheat and scoundrel. Why should I not assume that those associated with him are not the same? I find it very interesting that Abdu Murray claims to be an ex-Muslim but there is absolutely no information showing he was actually raised a Muslim or was at any time a devout Muslim. He has no education or training in religion. He is a commercial real estate lawyer. Maybe you can find some actual info on this guy that shows he is what he claims. To refresh your memory on Ravi, here are actually verifiable facts showing that he is a liar, a cheat and a scoundrel.
I see no real facts in the one website that you have presented. To be fair, I bought the book by the accusing author, Stephen Baumann.
Bio writes:
WHO AM I AND WHY DO I PICK ON RAVI ZACHARIAS? My name is Steve Baughman. I am a San Francisco lawyer, musician and some-time-part-time philosophy graduate student. I am an atheist and I have been known to post videos at YouTube as the Friendly Banjo Atheist.
In my studies I have come to see that some of the best philosophers are Christians. Atheists who deny this are either ignorant or blinded by anger. When I find a brilliant and articulate defender of the faith I tend to pay attention. Around early 2015 I happened upon RZ. He was not only articulate but had the Oxford and Cambridge education and multiple doctorate degrees to deserve a fair listen.
Plus, he made an argument about the prophetic inspiration of the Book of Daniel that ruffled my world view. If RZ was right about Daniel, (and his impressive academic credentials made him all the more persuasive to me,) I would need to reconsider my atheism.
It took many hours of reading and contacting Old Testament scholars to see that RZ's Daniel argument was fundamentally dishonest. I wondered why so qualified an academic would resort to bogus tactics of persuasion. I began digging and quickly found that RZ was a pretender. He had no doctorates, not even an academic M.A. He had never been a "visiting scholar at Cambridge University" nor a "Senior Research Fellow at Oxford University." In fact, without exception, every single impressive academic claim he made about himself was either false or grossly exaggerated.
I was astonished that he could get away with this while speaking to educated audiences worldwide. And I was especially troubled that not a single one of the real scholars with whom RZ partnered in evangelism ever bothered publicly to call him on his dishonesty (John Lennox. Paul Copan. Jeremy Begbie, Alister McGrath, Norman Geisler, and many others.)
We all know about the Code of Silence amongst cops and cardinals. But evangelists? Don't their holy documents require them to reprove erring elders for the benefit of the community? Or at very least to not enter the preaching business with bold deceivers?
There were only two responses open to me. I could shrug my shoulders and move on, ("Sigh,... evangelists will be evangelists.") Or I could document and publicize RZ's deceit. I chose the latter, not in the naive hope that my work would lead to RZ's demise. Rather I hoped that exposing RZ would raise critical awareness on the part of pew-warmers in churches and universities, at least in my own country. "Be on guard; there really are charming preachers who will deceive you!" It was also my hope that the RZ scandal would prompt the professional Christian press to begin a thorough discussion of credential-padding by evangelists. This is a serious and widespread problem.
I am happy to report that the word about RZ is getting out. But it is with no help from RZ's aforementioned colleagues, nor from leaders in the God Business or the Christian press. Perhaps that will change soon. If it doesn't, and if I am wrong about God's existence, atheists and other reprobates might not be the only ones in serious trouble on Judgment Day.
Steve Baughman San Francisco November 2016
After reading it and researching him, I may have a different opinion.
You are known for holding grudges. If someone says something untrue one time, you never again trust them. The Bible teaches that all have sinned and all sin. Therefore your eagerness to vilify Ravi based on one dubious website is careless at best, Based on the body of work that Zacharias has done, the intelligence which he clearly exudes, and no verifiable way to substantiate the claims from the Raviwatch website, I am unconvinced that he is a liar and fraud based only on that information. Nevermind, it won't change your grudge. You dont see it, but you have as much of a bias against Christian apologists as I may have for them.
Ravi is hardly a scoundrel. At worst, he made the mistake of using an honorary doctorate as an actual one. The incident involving the woman looks to be more of an attempt to exploit him.
You really need to learn to forgive people for sins that we ALL make. I have told you before that your guy Richard Carrier has done as bad or worse things than anything Ravi may have done. Finally, just because someone works for RZIM is no reason to smear their reputations with the bias you have against Ravi himself.
Now about Abdu Muray. I need to do some research....in order to answer the endless argumentative challenge. I was impressed after hearing his first testimony.
Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.
Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness. ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
Richard Carrier is not my guy. I would never use him as any sort of moral example. Evidence shows Ravi is a liar, a cheat and a scoundrel. I have presented the evidence. The claims made on RaviWatch are verifiable and in fact there is a page called detailed documentation. Are you lying for Jesus? I am quite impressed by the fact that you present no information that supports Abdu Murray. I am starting to feel confident he is just another Christian grifter and shyster.
Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
I am quite impressed by the fact that you present no information that supports Abdu Murray.
Impressed? Odd word to use. OK, here is what I have: (From Harper Collins,book publisher)
quote:Abdu Murray is North American Director with Ravi Zacharias International Ministries and is the author of three books, including his latest, Saving Truth: Finding Meaning and Clarity in a Post-Truth World. For most of his life, Abdu was a proud Muslim who studied the Qur’an and Islam. After a nine year investigation into the historical, philosophical, and scientific underpinnings of the major world religions and views, Abdu discovered that the historic Christian faith can answer the questions of the mind and the longings of the heart.
Abdu has spoken to diverse international audiences and has participated in debates and dialogues across the globe. He has appeared as a guest on numerous radio and television programs all over the world.
Abdu holds a BA in Psychology from the University of Michigan and earned his Juris Doctor from the University of Michigan Law School. As an attorney, Abdu was named several times in Best Lawyers in America and Michigan Super Lawyer. Abdu is the Scholar in Residence of Christian Thought and Apologetics at the Josh McDowell Institute of Oklahoma Wesleyan University.
I suppose we owe it to ourselves to find out if his college degrees are legitimate or if his claims of being top lawyer hold any merit. I guess I cant fault you for being skeptical, but why are you not as skeptical of the mythicists or the atheist activists? I'm sure everyone has a skeleton here and there.
Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness. ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
That biography says nothing. Where is he from? What mosque did he attend? What is his actual knowledge of islam? Not sure what a "proud moslem" is.
I have 40 years experience investigating "into the historical, philosophical, and scientific underpinnings of the major world religions and views". So am I an expert? Seemingly he has no academic training on the subject. His BA and Juris Doctor are irrelevant to the conversation. Oklahoma Wesleyan is not a prominent academic institution and the Josh McDowell institute is not as much an academic institution as a trainng ground for proselytizing.
but why are you not as skeptical of the mythicists or the atheist activists?
Why would you make such an accusation? There are many mythicists I am very skeptical of. Joseph Atwill Acharya S. Kenneth Humphreys Are all mythicists I have extreme skepticism toward. These are just a couple that make poor arguments. The mythicists I agree with use facts and data. Something christian apologists do not ever seem to use.
Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
As to your claim that the Raviwatch website provide no evidence for its claims against Ravi, here is the page documenting all of the evidence. RaviWatch - Detailed Documentation Yes Ravi Zacharias is a scoundrel. Are you incapable of reading actual evidence showing what a liar Ravi is?
At worst, he made the mistake of using an honorary doctorate as an actual one. The incident involving the woman looks to be more of an attempt to exploit him.
Are you truly that blind? Is it ignorance? Sexting a woman other than your wife will leave you open to exploitation. Funny how he dropped his lawsuit and settled with the couple. RaviWatch - Detailed Documentation If you actually read this page and follow all of the links you will see actual documentation for his multitude of lies and deceits.
Edited by Theodoric, : No reason given.
Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
I've emphasized time and time and time again that I do not scoff at or ignore His message.
That isn't true. Jesus told the rich man that he had to sell what he had and give to the poor to be saved. He never excluded anybody from that requirement. But you scoff at the idea. You say it's impractical. You call me an "extreme socialist' for quoting Him.
Phat writes:
I simply give you an argument that He is just as important in the grand scheme as His message is.
Also not true. You have never given an argument. You've only given an opinion with no rationale at all to back it up..
"If you can keep your head when all about you Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...." -- Rudyard Kipling
Are you incapable of reading actual evidence showing what a liar Ravi is?
I was curious, so I bought the actual book that Steve Baughman wrote. I will admit that the evidence concerning the lies of his scholastic status is solid and without dispute.
In addition, I saw the evidence of Ravi's response to the charges:
Exclusive: Ravi Zacharias Apologizes for False Claims about His Credentials at Oxford and Cambridge. The book which I purchased for $3.99 on Kindle was one that Steve Baughman wrote:
I noticed that Steve Baughman is an attorney by training as well as being known online as the Banjo Atheist. So I researched him too and found him honest. The charges that you, jar, and ringo have made about the apologists now seem more true to me than they did before I began my own investigation. To be honest, this evidence has thrown me into a state of cognitive dissonance, but I am facing it and moving on.
I do not find any evidence that his associates at RZIM are dishonest or misleading. Sadly, however, the status and reputation of RZIM has suffered greatly because of these exposes.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness. ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
So he was overly impressed with his own experience as an auditor at Cambridge, where he apparently sat in on the classes of some big names. So his terminology implies more than he actually experienced. But isn't it possible that it's no more than sloppy misuse of language and he was just overly impressed with the experience? What impresses me more is that people get called liars at EvC for just getting some minor facts wrong, or even having an opinion that disagrees with the prevailing opinion. Granted he should know better but since his own defense isn't supplied all you have is the accusation. Fairness requires hearing the other side. In any case, what's the big deal? Does it change what he has to say?
It does not change what he has to say, but it does indict Christians in general who ignore the seriousness and truthfulness of the claims. I personally forgive Ravi for anything he has done wrong, but I can never again trust him fully.
Regarding the online affair and the subsequent court case, I was at first convinced that Ravi had been framed. After listening to Baughman's presentation, however, I again see where Ravi was guilty.
Steve Baughman Interview writes:
Baughman notes that Zacharias’ defenders have tended to dismiss his allegations, chalking them up to Baughman’s own hatred of God (4). While this is unfortunate, it is hardly surprising given the tribalistic nature of many Christians. But it does suggest that Baughman’s best chance to reach Christians is found in adopting a measured tone sans any unnecessarily alienating rhetoric.
Baughman convinced me, was I a juror. This jury is no longer out. I confess that the claims against the number one apologist are true.
In summation, I present the closing parts of the interview:
quote:RR: I share your dismay at the tribalism that leads Christians to overlook the moral lapses within their community, including the fabulism of an apologist like Mr. Zacharias. It hardly needs to be pointed out that if an atheist like Richard Dawkins were behaving in this manner, Christians would not hesitate to call out his dishonesty. This double standard is indefensible. Needless to say, it also does enormous damage to the credibility of the Christian witness to a skeptical world.
Thanks for taking the time to discuss these important issues with us. If a person wants to learn more about this topic, where can they go?
SB: A great deal is coming out now from Christian bloggers. One may simply google Ravi Zacharias credentials for a wealth of information. The Spiritual Sounding Board has done a fine job of assembling the credential deceptions in one place. You and Warren Throckmorton have also done careful work at your blogs on the credential issues. I have a book that is about to go to press and should be out by the end of the year. I hope folks will keep their eyes out for my Coverup at God, Inc.; Sex, Lies and God’s Great Apologist, Ravi Zacharias.
I bought the book and am now reading it. I can't avoid the evidence, even if it discredits Christianity.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness. ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
Examine The Evidence but draw the proper conclusion.
Phat writes:
I can't avoid the evidence, even if it discredits Christianity.
But it does not discredit Christianity, it discredits the conmen and hucksters that prey (and pray) on the gullibility and unfortunate lack of being taught how to think that is the defining characteristic of the CCoI. It is simply yet more evidence that in general the Apologists are simply taking advantage of much of today's Christians.
The charges that you, jar, and ringo have made about the apologists now seem more true to me than they did before I began my own investigation.
The problem is that you're still not looking at the apologetics. You're conceding that some apologists have been dishonest in their personal lives but you're leaving yourself open to still believing their apologetic arguments. I don't care if Ravi Zacharias slept with the entire Mormon Tabernacle Choir. I'm only interested in what he says about the Bible. Why do you refuse to consider that?
"If you can keep your head when all about you Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...." -- Rudyard Kipling
He admitted he lied and he has not admitted to other known lies. He sexted a married woman than tried to guilt her into silence by claiming he would kill himself. The texts are out in public. He is a liar, a cheat and a scoundrel.
Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
OK, here is what I have:
™ Version 4.2
(1)