Testing The Christian Apologists

Your interpretation is not his own words, thanks anyway.

Their willingness to be so closely associated with a known and admitted cheat, liar and scoundrel should be quite telling.
Also, the fact that Abdu Murray provides no information on his background as a Muslim or his 9 year investigation that lead him to become a second rate christian apologist, should be quite telling. If I was going to let some guy explain to me the tenets of my belief system, I would demand at least that much background information about him. I realize that is not something christians do.

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While I have been privileged to receive several honorary doctorates from other institutions, to be clear, I have never earned a doctoral degree and was never enrolled at the University of Oxford or the University of Cambridge. And while I have lectured at Wycliffe Hall, I am not and have never been a professor at the University of Oxford. I recognize that academic terms and designations are important, and I apologize for any occasion on which I have wrongly titled my association with either of these institutions. For these reasons, I previously updated my curriculum vitae on the RZIM website to best reflect my educational and professional experience.

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Exclusive: Ravi Zacharias Apologizes for False Claims about His Credentials at Oxford and Cambridge – Warren ThrockmortonLiar, liar, pants on fire.

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While I have been privileged to receive several honorary doctorates from other institutions, to be clear, I have never earned a doctoral degree and was never enrolled at the University of Oxford or the University of Cambridge. And while I have lectured at Wycliffe Hall, I am not and have never been a professor at the University of Oxford. I recognize that academic terms and designations are important, and I apologize for any occasion on which I have wrongly titled my association with either of these institutions. For these reasons, I previously updated my curriculum vitae on the RZIM website to best reflect my educational and professional experience.

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Exclusive: Ravi Zacharias Apologizes for False Claims about His Credentials at Oxford and Cambridge – Warren Throckmorton

Agreed, but the apologists and their followers hold these scoundrels up as paragons as virtue. Their followers listen to them because they have marketed themselves as well educated, well respected, virtuous authorities. The christians will never actually examine the actual arguments. Exposing them as frauds should also expose their fraudulent arguments.
Alas, I know it won't. The sheep willingly get fleeced.

Because I believe what I was taught, basically. Not everyone who teaches it the traditional way is a scam artist or liar. What's more, none of the ones attempting to "teach" me the correct way to look at it have ever admitted to having a born again experience with Jesus. In fact, many of you claim that He never existed. Why should I listen to your plain reading of a book that you tout as nothing more than a secular humanist message to do humanitarian acts for others?

I see your point. "The Christians"...by whom I assume you mean the literalist fundamentalists, believe that everyone sins and is capable of deceiving themselves. We thus tend to give anyone who confesses their sin before the church body and repents honestly as no longer a scoundrel, sinner, adulterer or whatever. Granted we are wise enough to give the healing process some time and insist upon accountability. WE do not like liars any more than you do, but we tend to forgive them quicker than you would. (apparently)The reason I stopped defending Ravi is not that he sinned. It is because he had to be exposed and did not catch it himself beforehand.

I still feel I need to know more about how Ravi got into what he got into. Did he believe what he was saying at the time in some weird way perhaps? If he taught a class at Oxford in Wycliffe Hall I think he said or maybe I have the name wrong, did he feel he could call himself a professor without bothering about accurate titles or what? His statement of repentance or apology emphasizes the importance of using correct titles, so is he saying he was just ignorant or sloppy about their use or what? Yes I'm trying to find a way to minimize it but in the end maybe he was conscious of it all.However, that doesn't make what you said wrong, about how the church forgives and wipes the slate clean, because scripture is clear that we do forgive and consider the slate wiped clean if there is repentance. And if we are born again then God does not count our sins against us. But we do have to repent.And we still suffer consequences for our sins in this life. Remember David who sinned with Bathsheba and had her husband murdered. The conseqeucnes were horrendous. First his baby son with Bathsheba died, then one of his other sons raped his half sister and then treated her like dirt. Then Absalom rebelled and tried to take David's throne from him and died. All that came from David's sins with Bathsheba. We all suffer for our sins and sometimes our sins have consequences for others too.I see some in my own life, some sufferings and deprivation of happiness for me and even my descendants too as a result of my own sins. It's depressing but it's better to know it than not. This is how the Moral Law works, and it works in everybody's life, believer or nonbeliever. But still God accepts my repentance and welcomes me back as far as my future life with Him goes. I do have to suffer here nevertheless.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Two points that seem relevant.Firstly, deception is part of his method. As Phat quoted in Message 617
Misrepresenting his credentials to add the appearance of credibility to his claims is part of that. And it works on those who are in sufficiently sceptical. From the same quote: See also the deceptive bluster quoted in Message 253 as explained in my Message 256Secondly credential inflation seems to be quite common among creationists, who are a similar brand of apologist. From Kent Hovind’s diploma mill doctorate to the Discovery Institute’s lists of scientists to the attempts to present Werner Gitt as an academic, rather than a manager.

Yes. I don't think that Ravi was consciously aware that he was deceiving people--he likely justified the titles in his own mind. The author explains it this way: I respect how this author attempts to keep his own pride in check---he is an attorney by trade---and presents simply the available facts behind the matter. Unlike Theodoric, I am in no way eager to brand Ravi as a shyster, con artist, or flim-flam man. The author describes Ravi as shallow, but I believe that Ravi is intelligent and his perspective on Christianity still has value. Sadly, this book violated my trust and caused me some cognitive dissonance in my beliefs. Theodoric first brought this issue up, and I find it humbling that God is using atheists to temper my perspective on belief, truth, and reality. jar has also mentioned the dishonesty of many Biblical Christians, but he claims that they all are dishonest---which is ridiculous.Perhaps there is a confusion of terminology here. As a Christian, I believe that all have sinned. Everybody is dishonest at one time or another. The counter-argument is that we humans do have the ability, to tell the truth, and have integrity.

But surely you want to know which ones are liars and which ones are not, don't you? How can you do that except by testing what they say? Nobody here is trying to "teach" you anything. We're just trying to get you to think. Because it might be the truth. Duh.How can you tell who's telling the truth without testing both versions?You started a thread titled "Testing The Christian Apologists". Why not participate in good faith in your own thread?

I do think the church is in bad shape these days, and I count myself as in bad shape too, in our apparent weakness of falling into sin. However, there are plenty of examples of that among the Christians in the New Testament too, we're not alone, although it's possible more of us are weak now, I don't really know. The fact that we supposedly live in a "Christian" culture may have something to do with this: we don't expect ourselves to rise much above the culture. We all know unbelievers who live good lives too. Nevertheless the author is right that there SHOULD be a distinction between us and the culture that is not apparent. In my own place I could point out that I was a far WORSE sinner before I became a believer but nobody here knew me then.When we fall sometimes it's hard to get up, sometimes we don't even know we fell. There's a whole discussion that could be had in here somewhere but maybe not here since this is supposed to be about the apologists. I've avoided this thread to some extent probably mostly because attacking the apologists seems odd to me. All they are doing is trying to spell out the Christian doctrines, so it becomes a discussion about the doctrines anyway, rather than the apologists per se.Billy Graham was always impressive with his strict rules about avoiding occasions of temptation, particularly with women. But also we need to pray for those in the public eye because they are particular targets.Anyway thanks for your response. I hadn't listened to Ravi in years abut always thought he did a good job.

Ok Ok. I got you. But my bigger question at the moment is whether the Christian Nationalists can handle being broke. Reality suggests that a lot of them will soon be heading that way. The wealthy ones were never really Christians anyway, right?But lets you and i discuss some of the basic dogma that is common in Christian apologetics. Stuff that I may have taken for granted and that you may have never accepted.

Sell all that you have and give to the poor.--You claim that this message is for everybody. Am I right? Please elaborate, and please show us that you are well on your way to selling everything.

Accept Jesus into your heart. --

The flesh wars against the Spirit. Thus, resist the flesh and feed the Spirit.

Find a local church and commune regularly with others Does the Saskatchewan Library count?

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Any others you might find

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Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha

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You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

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As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

He probably did justify the titles, in hid own mind, but he was consciously misrepresenting himself and scamming people. Do you honestly believe he had nothing to do with sites and his pr staff developing this bogus list of credentials. He knew he was lying.
Can you name any major atheist pundit that has misrepresented their credentials? There well may be, but I am not aware of any.
Ravi is a liar, a cheat and a scoundrel.

I always liked Billy Graham. My parents did too. Evidently so did many presidents.Let's add him to my discussion with ringo. I am curious how ringo responds to common apologetic assumptions that we Christians believe in.Here is a good blog that I am just now reading. I googled "Billy Graham+Apologetics" and found it.
Billy Graham:Apologist?Edited by Thugpreacha, : oops