Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
5 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,819 Year: 3,076/9,624 Month: 921/1,588 Week: 104/223 Day: 2/13 Hour: 1/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Testing The Christian Apologists
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(2)
Message 629 of 1086 (869315)
12-28-2019 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 624 by Phat
12-28-2019 9:57 AM


Re: Examining The Evidence
Phat writes:
The charges that you, jar, and ringo have made about the apologists now seem more true to me than they did before I began my own investigation.
The problem is that you're still not looking at the apologetics. You're conceding that some apologists have been dishonest in their personal lives but you're leaving yourself open to still believing their apologetic arguments. I don't care if Ravi Zacharias slept with the entire Mormon Tabernacle Choir. I'm only interested in what he says about the Bible. Why do you refuse to consider that?

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 624 by Phat, posted 12-28-2019 9:57 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 635 by Theodoric, posted 12-28-2019 12:02 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied
 Message 636 by Phat, posted 12-28-2019 3:37 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(2)
Message 641 of 1086 (869367)
12-29-2019 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 636 by Phat
12-28-2019 3:37 PM


Re: Examining The Evidence
Phat writes:
Not everyone who teaches it the traditional way is a scam artist or liar.
But surely you want to know which ones are liars and which ones are not, don't you? How can you do that except by testing what they say?
Phat writes:
What's more, none of the ones attempting to "teach" me the correct way to look at it have ever admitted to having a born again experience with Jesus.
Nobody here is trying to "teach" you anything. We're just trying to get you to think.
Phat writes:
Why should I listen to your plain reading of a book that you tout as nothing more than a secular humanist message to do humanitarian acts for others?
Because it might be the truth. Duh.
How can you tell who's telling the truth without testing both versions?
You started a thread titled "Testing The Christian Apologists". Why not participate in good faith in your own thread?

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 636 by Phat, posted 12-28-2019 3:37 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 643 by Phat, posted 12-29-2019 1:26 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 648 of 1086 (869377)
12-29-2019 2:09 PM
Reply to: Message 643 by Phat
12-29-2019 1:26 PM


Re: Examining The Evidence
Phat writes:
But my bigger question at the moment is whether the Christian Nationalists can handle being broke.
That isn't the topic.
Phat writes:
But lets you and i discuss some of the basic dogma that is common in Christian apologetics.
I'd rather discuss the topic.
Phat writes:
Sell all that you have and give to the poor.--You claim that this message is for everybody. Am I right?
I don't make any claim. I just don't see anywhere where Jesus listed exceptions.
Phat writes:
... please show us that you are well on your way to selling everything.
As I've told you before, I don't even believe that Jesus existed. Why would I follow His advice any more than I would follow the Fred Flintstone's advice? I'm just wondering why you claim to believe in Him yet you ridicule His advice.
Phat writes:
Accept Jesus into your heart. --
My heart is busy pumping blood right now. If Jesus was in there, I'd probably need to have Him surgically removed.
Phat writes:
The flesh wars against the Spirit.
The "spirit" is a function of mind. A fragment of underdone potato can tamper with Scrooge's mind and make him "see" spirits but otherwise there's no "war".
But the topic is Testing the Christian Apologists. Are you admitting that they've failed the test?

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 643 by Phat, posted 12-29-2019 1:26 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 651 by Phat, posted 12-29-2019 4:38 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 649 of 1086 (869378)
12-29-2019 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 645 by Phat
12-29-2019 1:34 PM


Re: Examining The Evidence
Phat writes:
I am curious how ringo responds to common apologetic assumptions that we Christians believe in.
How can I respond to their assumptions if you won't bring them here?

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 645 by Phat, posted 12-29-2019 1:34 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 650 by Phat, posted 12-29-2019 4:30 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 658 of 1086 (869415)
12-30-2019 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 650 by Phat
12-29-2019 4:30 PM


Re: Examining The Evidence
Phat writes:
OK lets start with a common one:
4 Spiritual Laws
What part of "bring it here" do you not understand?
Bring it here. Explain it in your own words. I've asked you to do that many, many times.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 650 by Phat, posted 12-29-2019 4:30 PM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 659 of 1086 (869418)
12-30-2019 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 651 by Phat
12-29-2019 4:38 PM


Re: Who is On The Throne?
Phat writes:
The basic teaching is shown in this diagram.
Besides being unreadable, that diagram explains nothing. It's just a reiteration of your empty belief. Where's the scripture to back it up?
Phat writes:
Whereupon ringo artfully dodges the responsibility that he hoists upon me:
Don't lie about me. I have never told you what you should do. I have only told you what Jesus told you to do.
Phat writes:
We were created with the freedom to rebel.
That's not an excuse for you to rebel against Jesus' teachings and then claim to "believe in Him".
Phat writes:
Jesus is the antidote to satan.
Then why don't you follow Him?

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 651 by Phat, posted 12-29-2019 4:38 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 660 by Phat, posted 12-30-2019 4:18 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 664 of 1086 (869488)
12-31-2019 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 660 by Phat
12-30-2019 4:18 PM


Re: Who is On The Throne?
Phat writes:
If Jesus really ment those specific words "sell all you have: for every Christian, I would not follow Him.
If?
If there is an argument against what Jesus said, for God's sake, tell us what it is. If the apologists have a "better" version, tell us what it is.
I'll repeat what I've said many times before:
1. Elijah told the widow to give him the last of her food, even though she believed she and her son would die as a result.
2. Jesus pointed out the widow who gave her last two mites and He applauded her for it.
3. Jesus told the rich man to sell what he had and give to the poor; the rich man responded exactly as you do.
4. The early church at Rome believed that Jesus meant what He said; they pooled all of their resources - and Ananias and Sapphira were struck down by God for holding back.
There is a definite trend in the Bible.
The only counter-argument that you have presented is that Zacchaeus offered half of what he had. (We are not told whether he got away with it.) Do the apologists have a better argument?
Phat writes:
Apologists indeed do get us off the hook, but then we are faced with answering the charges that we have made up our own religion.
You can be as annoyed as you like but I suppose you won't be able to deny it any more.
Phat writes:
Christians forgive their brothers and sisters and an indictment is not a forever thing.
Forgiveness requires repentance. We don't forgive Charles Manson serially every time he murders somebody. He has to stop.
Ravi Zaccharias lies about what the Bible says. You continue to believe his lies. There is no place for forgiveness there.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 660 by Phat, posted 12-30-2019 4:18 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 665 by Phat, posted 01-01-2020 10:29 AM ringo has replied
 Message 669 by Phat, posted 02-17-2020 4:57 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 666 of 1086 (869547)
01-01-2020 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 665 by Phat
01-01-2020 10:29 AM


Re: Faith Based Reply To Mike The Wizard
Phat writes:
I am replying to you, Ringo but also to Mike The Wiz from our science topic, Here.
There is no response to me over there.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 665 by Phat, posted 01-01-2020 10:29 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 668 by Phat, posted 02-17-2020 4:49 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 670 of 1086 (872011)
02-18-2020 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 669 by Phat
02-17-2020 4:57 PM


Re: Who is On The Throne?
Phat writes:
Quite simply, giving everything is more symbolic than literal.
So Ananias and Sapphira were "symbolically" killed?
Phat writes:
Anyone foolish enough to give every spare loonie that they have (including in the bank) away would soon find themselves homeless with the ones they are trying to help.
So the church at Rome was foolish?

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 669 by Phat, posted 02-17-2020 4:57 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 671 by Phat, posted 02-19-2020 3:14 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 673 of 1086 (872069)
02-19-2020 2:17 PM
Reply to: Message 671 by Phat
02-19-2020 3:14 AM


Re: Loonies, Toonies, and Homelessness
Phat writes:
It was a different era. Christians were persecuted and few of them had much money at all.
You're making that up.
Phat writes:
My point is this: If you are not poor, why on earth would you make yourself poor?
Look at the story of the widow who gave Elijah her last morsel of food. She was provided for.
Why would you not trust God to take care of you?

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 671 by Phat, posted 02-19-2020 3:14 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 674 by Phat, posted 02-19-2020 3:02 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 675 of 1086 (872076)
02-19-2020 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 674 by Phat
02-19-2020 3:02 PM


Re: Loonies, Toonies, and Homelessness
Phat writes:
ringo writes:
Why would you not trust God to take care of you?
It may be the case that I don't trust ringo to take care of me.
What does that have to do with God taking care of you?

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 674 by Phat, posted 02-19-2020 3:02 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 676 by Phat, posted 02-19-2020 4:13 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 688 of 1086 (872106)
02-20-2020 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 676 by Phat
02-19-2020 4:13 PM


Re: Humina Humina Humina...Who Do You Trust?
Phat writes:
I question His advice since he expects me to do it all myself.
Look what you wrote in the previous paragraph: "You have also said before that all available evidence shows that we must do it ourselves as there are no Gods or Angels out mowing the lawn, feeding hungry people, or delivering the paper." You know that's true.
Phat writes:
If some bumpkin came down the sidewalk and told me to mow my lawn and weed my garden, I would ask him what leg he had to stand on in ordering me to do such stuff.
So Jesus is just some bumpkin on the sidewalk to you.
Phat writes:
If a character in a book tells me to sell everything and trust that I will be taken care of, I might expect him to offer me land in Florida next. Right next to Benny Hinn's place.
Indeed, that would be the appropriate reaction. So why do you trust the voices in your head more?
Phat writes:
Trusting Jesus--as a living presence and not simply a character in a book--takes work.
It must be the voices in your head telling you that because the character in the book told you to have faith like a little child.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 676 by Phat, posted 02-19-2020 4:13 PM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 689 of 1086 (872108)
02-20-2020 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 682 by Phat
02-19-2020 9:26 PM


Re: Humina Humina Humina...Who Do You Trust?
Phat writes:
But what if the bill wiped out whats left of the surplus nest egg that the American Middle class has earned over the last 80 years?
It isn't about the whole American middle class. It's an individual message. If you personally do the best you can do, nobody's going to blame you for destroying the whole American middle class.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 682 by Phat, posted 02-19-2020 9:26 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 690 by Phat, posted 02-21-2020 10:13 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 693 of 1086 (872197)
02-22-2020 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 690 by Phat
02-21-2020 10:13 PM


Re: Humina Humina Humina...Who Do You Trust?
Phat writes:
I just think that it's unfair that suddenly the whole rest of the world gives us the bill for virtually everything that needs fixing.
Part of that "bill" is calling in the loan. The West has been taking and taking from the rest of the world for centuries - and now you complain that we have to give something back.
Phat writes:
And then you come along and try and remind the Christians what Jesus wants them to do, even though to you He is but a character in a book.
What on earth do my beliefs have to do with it? I don't have to be a Mormon to tell you what the Book of Mormon says.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 690 by Phat, posted 02-21-2020 10:13 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 694 by Phat, posted 02-22-2020 11:09 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(2)
Message 695 of 1086 (872199)
02-22-2020 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 694 by Phat
02-22-2020 11:09 AM


Re: The Bottom Line On Christian Nationalism & Apologetics
Phat writes:
The United States is tired of being the sucker who pays the check for the whole table.
As I said, that is not the case. You (we) are being asked to pay for a thousand stolen meals in the past.
Phat writes:
And it is not impressionable on me that the West owes the world a payback loan. that will never happen without a major war.
That would be stupid. Wars don't pay; they cost.
Phat writes:
If I go down with the ship, the other ships will take a hit also.
What an insane reaction.
Phat writes:
I'm not some noble Christian justice warrior giving everything away to help humanity.
Then you have no business talking about Jesus. Call the voice in your head Carl.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 694 by Phat, posted 02-22-2020 11:09 AM Phat has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024