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Author Topic:   Did the Flood really happen?
ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1279 of 2370 (868706)
12-17-2019 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 1277 by Faith
12-16-2019 5:48 PM


Re: Basics Faith, basics.
Faith writes:
... the mountains grew up AFTER the Flood, one of the results of the tectonic activity that began AFTER the Flood and probably caused the draining of the Flood water too. Volcanoes also were the result of the tectonic movement and therefore so were the volcanic mountains.
That's totally unscriptural.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1277 by Faith, posted 12-16-2019 5:48 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1280 by Coragyps, posted 12-17-2019 12:05 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied
 Message 1281 by Faith, posted 12-17-2019 12:21 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 1283 of 2370 (868710)
12-17-2019 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 1281 by Faith
12-17-2019 12:21 PM


Re: Basics Faith, basics.
Faith writes:
It's perfectly consistent with scripture, which says nothing about such things.
By that logic, Martians are perfectly consistent with scripture; they're not mentioned either.
But scripture does mention two sources of water for the Flood - rain and "fountains of the deep" - so it seems unlikely that a major event like mountain-building would be ignored.
"Consistent with scripture" does not mean, "can be made up out of thin air and shoehorned into scripture".

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1281 by Faith, posted 12-17-2019 12:21 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1287 by Faith, posted 12-17-2019 12:52 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1304 of 2370 (868753)
12-17-2019 8:57 PM
Reply to: Message 1287 by Faith
12-17-2019 12:52 PM


Re: Basics Faith, basics.
Faith writes:
... evidence that fits a whole Flood scenario and doesn't contradict scripture is not a problem.
It's a huge problem on both counts. The vast majority of evidence contradicts the Flood story. Even you have admitted more than once that there are things you can't explain.
And your perverted "explanation" of the Flood ignores scripture almost entirely. You make it up as you go along without regard to what the scriptures actually say.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1287 by Faith, posted 12-17-2019 12:52 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1305 by Faith, posted 12-17-2019 9:27 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 1314 of 2370 (868777)
12-18-2019 2:06 PM
Reply to: Message 1305 by Faith
12-17-2019 9:27 PM


Re: Basics Faith, basics.
Faith writes:
Nothing I've said to try to explain the Flood contradicts scripture.
Making up stuff that isn't in scripture is just as bad as flat out contradicting scripture.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1305 by Faith, posted 12-17-2019 9:27 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1315 by Faith, posted 12-18-2019 2:39 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1316 of 2370 (868781)
12-18-2019 2:46 PM
Reply to: Message 1315 by Faith
12-18-2019 2:39 PM


Re: How to use the Bible, in this case about the Flood
Faith writes:
The Bible gives us only the bare bones of the Flood, in fact that's all it gives us of everything else tooe are expected to expand on it. That's all a sermon is, an expansion on something in the Bible.
quote:
Proverbs 30:6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1315 by Faith, posted 12-18-2019 2:39 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1318 by Faith, posted 12-18-2019 2:55 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1319 of 2370 (868785)
12-18-2019 3:02 PM
Reply to: Message 1318 by Faith
12-18-2019 2:55 PM


Re: How to use the Bible, in this case about the Flood
Faith writes:
Yes it is possible to misrepresent God's word and be reproved for it. I'm not doing that...
You certainly are. You are adding something that is not there, exactly what Proverbs warned against.
Faith writes:
... all you've been doing is complaining that I dare to think about how the Flood could have created what we actually see in reality that is not mentioned in the Bible...
I'm observing that you're mangling both the Bible and reality to try to match them both to the fantasy you've made up in your head.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1318 by Faith, posted 12-18-2019 2:55 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1321 by Faith, posted 12-18-2019 3:12 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 1326 of 2370 (868793)
12-18-2019 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 1321 by Faith
12-18-2019 3:12 PM


Re: How to use the Bible, in this case about the Flood
Faith writes:
I am not adding TO THE BIBLE...
Sure you are. The tectonics are necessary for your explanation. The tectonics are not in the Bible. Therefore, your explanation is not biblical.
Faith writes:
If I'm "adding to the Bible" then so are all the preachers and theolgicans and apologists I mentioned.
Yup.
Faith writes:
Adding to the Bible means adding teachings you take to be on the level of scripture.
Nope, it says adding to the words:
quote:
Proverbs 30:6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.
i.e adding to a story stuff that isn't there.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1321 by Faith, posted 12-18-2019 3:12 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1328 by Faith, posted 12-18-2019 3:28 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1331 of 2370 (868799)
12-18-2019 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 1328 by Faith
12-18-2019 3:28 PM


Re: How to use the Bible, in this case about the Flood
Faith writes:
There is nothing about tectonic movement hat violates the Bible.
Adding it to the Bible violates the Bible.
Instant mountains also violate physics, by the way.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1328 by Faith, posted 12-18-2019 3:28 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1332 by Faith, posted 12-18-2019 4:36 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1333 of 2370 (868812)
12-18-2019 5:14 PM
Reply to: Message 1332 by Faith
12-18-2019 4:36 PM


Re: How to use the Bible, in this case about the Flood
Faith writes:
I'm using the Bible as the launching pad.
How is that not adding to it?
Faith writes:
And the mountains were not "instant," they rose over the following 4300 years...
That's certainly instant on a geological time scale.
Faith writes:
and may still be rising, the same way the continents have been moving over that same period and are still moving.
That's where your problem arises. We know how fast the continents are moving and how fast the mountains are rising. There isn't near enough time in your scenario to make the mountains as big as they are now.
Faith writes:
It all started out fairly fast but has gradually slowed to the present tiny part of an inch per year.
And you have never been able to suggest a mechanism either for how they could have zoomed so fast in the first place or for how the could decellerate so fast.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1332 by Faith, posted 12-18-2019 4:36 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1334 by Faith, posted 12-18-2019 5:22 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1349 of 2370 (868870)
12-19-2019 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 1334 by Faith
12-18-2019 5:22 PM


Re: How to use the Bible, in this case about the Flood
Faith writes:
Fast then slow, gradual, not sudden, not instantaneous.
It's the "fast" part that's physically impossible. It might as well be instantaneous. It's been explained to you before the enormous amounts of energy that would have been required to move whole mountain ranges "fast". Where did that energy come from? And where did that energy go after the mountains had moved?
And what magic started that process and then stopped it? And why did it never happen again?

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1334 by Faith, posted 12-18-2019 5:22 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1353 by Faith, posted 12-19-2019 4:31 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1366 of 2370 (868925)
12-20-2019 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 1353 by Faith
12-19-2019 4:31 PM


Re: How to use the Bible, in this case about the Flood
Faith writes:
Sure you "explain" things to me that I take issue with and I explain things to you that account for the Flood. So?
But you don't explain. You didn't answer any of my questions.
  • Where did the energy come from to lift the mountains so fast??
  • Where did that energy go after the mountains had formed?
  • What started that process and then stopped it?
  • Why did it never happen again?
Faith writes:
You guys have no idea how fast is possible for building a mountain or separating the continents.
Sure we do. We know how much energy it takes and we know how much heat would be produced if all of that energy was in one place in a very short period of time.
Faith writes:
And you don't know what mitigating factors are likely to be involved.
If you were actually explaining anything, YOU would have to specify what those mitigating factors are.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1353 by Faith, posted 12-19-2019 4:31 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1367 by Faith, posted 12-20-2019 11:39 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1368 of 2370 (868929)
12-20-2019 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 1367 by Faith
12-20-2019 11:39 AM


Re: How to use the Bible, in this case about the Flood
Faith writes:
What's your problem? It's the same force that split the continents.
I didn't ask about force. I asked about energy. It's like me asking where the energy comes from to move a car and you saying the engine. I'm asking about the energy that goes into the engine to move the car.
Faith writes:
It's been gradually dissipating for some 4300 years.
So show your work. Calculate how much energy it would take to lift a mountain and how long it would take to dissipate to current levels.
Faith writes:
No, you don't know what happened so your calculations can only be guesses.
Not at all. We know how much a mountain weighs. We know how much energy it would take to lift it. There's no guesswork involved. The same calculations are used every day in a thousand different situations.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1367 by Faith, posted 12-20-2019 11:39 AM Faith has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1513 of 2370 (869438)
12-30-2019 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 1509 by Faith
12-30-2019 11:27 AM


Re: Moving post about the prehistoric geological past
Faith writes:
REPEATABLE is another important concept. The prehistoric geological past is about ONE TIME events, Unwitnessed in any sense of that word, and UNREPEATABLE.
Repeatable does not mean that the events are repeatable. We can not repeat the destruction of the World trade Center but we can be very sure that it did happen.
What is repeatable is the observations of the existing evidence. Fifty scientists with different backgrounds can observe the wreckage of the WTC and agree on how it got into that state. Similarly, fifty scientists with different backgrounds can look at the rocks and agree on how they get into that state.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1509 by Faith, posted 12-30-2019 11:27 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1519 by Faith, posted 12-30-2019 7:50 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 1521 of 2370 (869485)
12-31-2019 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 1519 by Faith
12-30-2019 7:50 PM


Re: Moving post about the prehistoric geological past
Faith writes:
I also listed "witnesses" referring to events that have been seen by many or reported in writing, which certainly describes the WTC event.
Even in the story, there was a maximum of eight witnesses and there is no corroborating evidence that those witnesses even existed. On the other hand, we have reports in writing from other civilizations - Egypt, India, China - that indicate that no worldwide flood happened. If you're going to accept witness evidence, you have to accept all of it.
Faith writes:
My point is that the geological phenomena that are PREHISTORIC, meaning without any sort of witness evidence, and ONE-TIME events, meaning unrepeatable, are not testable science....
And my point was that that is NOT what repeatable means. The geology can certainly be tested today.

"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1519 by Faith, posted 12-30-2019 7:50 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1522 by Faith, posted 12-31-2019 1:17 PM ringo has replied
 Message 1523 by dwise1, posted 12-31-2019 1:28 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1541 of 2370 (869564)
01-02-2020 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 1522 by Faith
12-31-2019 1:17 PM


Re: Moving post about the prehistoric geological past
Faith writes:
I did not mention the people on the ark....
You certainly did. You mentioned "witnesses".
Faith writes:
... and a one time event is pretty much the definition of nonrepeatability.
As I have said more than once, it is not the event that must be repeatable; it's the observations. We do not repeat a murder to solve the mystery. But different people at different times must be able to repeat the observations of the evidence.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1522 by Faith, posted 12-31-2019 1:17 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1545 by Faith, posted 01-02-2020 1:46 PM ringo has replied

  
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