Reluctant? I've discussed it for longer than I'd really care to! But anyway, to continue...
The question I asked im Message 1953 was, "What are the LOGICAL errors in the idea of God?" You still haven't answered that question.
Sarah Bellum writes:
The concept of a god is a human invention, not a real thing, a personification of volcanoes or the ocean (Vulcan or Neptune) or of good and evil (Jesus and Beelzebub).
I agree that the details are made up. But why is the idea of gods illogical?
What
are
the
logical
errors?
"If you can keep your head when all about you Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...." -- Rudyard Kipling
Now, mind you, there's nothing bad said about the irrational, in it's place. Leprechauns and unicorns are the subject of delightful stories. Indeed, often more delightful than stories about mundane short people or mere horses. But there's a difference between rational and irrational.
Surely you're not saying that Vulcan and Neptune (not to mention Ra, Vishnu, Shiva, Dagon, Marduk, Baron Samedi, Loki, Odin, Amaterasu, Uzume, Quetzalcoatl, Anansi, Dagda, Danu, Y Ti...) have any real existence outside the imaginations of human beings? Or that it would be unfair to those human beings to say that such gods are only inventions of those human beings?
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I was talking about those who have actually experienced such beings. Unfortunately I don't know in the case of any of those you list what accounts there may be of such experiences. Dagon has a biblical passage about him, his statue at least, which twice fell down in a position of worship toward Jehovah, but nothing about anyone experiencing the god himself. But people do tell of their own personal encounters with "spiritual" beings and for those stories to be denied on the basis of your own prejudice that defines them as mere inventions, is what I'm saying is unfair to human beings.
Maybe your concept of "irrational" or "illogical" isn't fully thought out? For instance, we both know that horses are real and unicorns are fanciful (however many people may believe in them, or even write descriptions of their physiology and powers).
Those are examples of many deities whose followers would appear no less ardent than the followers of your deity. Are you prepared to say that those deities have an existence outside the imaginations of their followers?
If not, how is it unfair to followers of your deity?
Those are examples of many deities whose followers would appear no less ardent than the followers of your deity. Are you prepared to say that those deities have an existence outside the imaginations of their followers? If not, how is it unfair to followers of your deity?
Again, I was talking about personal EXPERIENCE of such beings. Yes I am "prepared to say" that many "deities" have an actual reality because I believe that many are actual demons, but I don't know in any particular case without more information.
But I was talking about unfairness to those who claim such personal experiences, not saying anything about "followers of [my] deity." Following a "god" is different from knowing it's a real spiritual being.
I'm not familiar with Penn and Teller -- magicians? I assume they don't claim their magic is real? I'm talking about people who claim to have had REAL experiences of REAL spiritual entities and what's unfair is telling them their perceptions are false on the basis of your own prejudice that they simply HAVE to be merely human inventions.
When I was reading up on religions and started having some "spiritual" experiences of my own, I was amazed to discover how many others had had such experiences and were willing to tell me about them simply because I told them about my own. All sorts of experiences of "another world" that most "rational" people haven't experienced and therefore deny.
People claim to have real experiences with extra-terrestrial visitors. Do you think those experiences are real?
Bear in mind that the concept of extra-terrestrial life itself isn't irrational: there's no reason to believe life won't be found some day in another solar system. But their perceptions of those experiences are false.
eople claim to have real experiences with extra-terrestrial visitors. Do you think those experiences are real?
Each account has to be judged on its own merits. As a baseline position I think it very likely that such encounters are with demons masquerading as beings from other parts of the universe. That's what I think most UFO phenomena really are. I was interested to discover that one researacher, Jacques Vallee, had done a study of UFO phenomena in the context of a study of folklore stories and concluded that the UFOs behave as the creatures of those stories behave. He isn't a Christian and doesn't think of them as demons but he does think of them as "spiritual" beings of some sort whose mission is deception.
Bear in mind that the concept of extra-terrestrial life itself isn't irrational: there's no reason to believe life won't be found some day in another solar system. But their perceptions of those experiences are false.
I think the irrational belief is that there is life in any other part of the universe myself, and that much of the phenomena reported as UFO-related are demonic. There may be some frauds and there may be plenty of misperceptions as well, but basically I think it likely we're talking demonic apparitions.
There are other threads about UFOs where I've discussed this by the way.
The data for this conclusion is overwhelming. The question isn't whether or not the data is reliable or exists... the question is only whether or not you want to accept the conclusion that the evidence is pointing towards.
Phat writes:
I tend to go with jar on this one. How do you test for the supernatural? Some claim to have found God. You perhaps claim that "we" equates to the collective of humanity and that as a collective no objective evidence has ever been found.
quote:Evidence--the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid.
My question: Evidence of what? God? If I use you and your mind as part of my data I would conclude...upon examining you, that you honestly have no conviction, conceptualization, or belief concerning any God as defined by human literature being objectively real. If, however, I examine my Pastor, I see that he has a conviction, conceptualization, and belief...as well as anecdotal experience concerning at least the Christian concept of God. His behavior reflects it.
Now...you may well argue that due to the fact that you could produce a given atheist who behaves similar to my Pastor---in that he cheerfully feeds the poor, comforts the sick, encourages the young and old alike...without conceptualizing God in any way(bypassing the Jesus thing...remember? Phat--->Jesus----good works vs Stile---->good works) the data thus suggests Jesus and/or God as unneeded and thus not a required conceptualization/belief. Perhaps you believe that God/Jesus would be welcomed by you should evidence/data become available. The dogma suggests, however, that humans by nature do not want God/Jesus. Comments?
Stile writes:
quote:How do you test for the supernatural? Some claim to have found God.
What's the important part about "finding God"? No one has answered that question with anything that cannot be obtained without God anyway... So, if all the factors about "finding God" are available without God... what does the phrase actually mean? If it doesn't do anything... then who cares?
You have a point, but I think I remain in the Faith camp for several reasons. 1) I have had subjective experience which I count as evidence. 2) I need God to exist anyway...as long as he is as advertised...loving, powerful, drawing me to my fullest potential (for Him), etc. I guess, to be honest, God is like a super Dad for me. I fall so far short of the standards that I attribute to Him that it causes me anxiety and fear. To be honest, I literally NEED for God to exist, and having more people agree that He is needed must somehow reinforce my belief.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness. ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith "You may not like it, but the dog bites both ankles."~Tangle
I think the irrational belief is that there is life in any other part of the universe myself and that much of the phenomena reported as UFO-related are demonic.
I agree with the UFOs=likely demonic manifestations argument, but I think its a mistake to believe that this one dust speck of a planet is the only place for life. (Intelligent life, at any rate) It really makes our belief out to be quite human-centric. Why would God create a vast universe as a mere prop? It's similar to why He would flood an entire planet and kill everything simply to carry one family to redemption. I'm not ruling out His power to do so, but if we go that route, what else is he capable of? ringo seems to think He doesn't care. Tangle agrees and even goes so far as to say that he would be happy if God didn't exist. All I know is if it were proven to me that God did not exist, I would likely have a psychotic episode. I have strong denial mechanisms, but not as strong as you do. Give me a positive word as a reply. And Happy New Year, by the way.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness. ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith "You may not like it, but the dog bites both ankles."~Tangle
Itrs a tad ironic that Penn Jillette is a staunch atheist.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction . "~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness. ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith "You may not like it, but the dog bites both ankles."~Tangle
I'm not sure what you would count as a positive word, Thugs. Not sure what you mean at all. I tend to think you think too highly of unbelievers' opinions but I can't change your mind about that. I would never reduce the Flood the way you do as if God had no good reason for it and as if the unbelievers' complaints about everything God does by way of judgment matter at all. I really don't know what you want to me to say that's positive, but I suppose this isn't it. Sorry.
And Happy New Year, by the way.
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