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Author Topic:   Testing The Christian Apologists
jar
Member
Posts: 33019
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 661 of 853 (869461)
12-30-2019 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 660 by Phat
12-30-2019 4:18 PM


forgive does not mean forget
Phat writes:

Secular people are tougher on people who lie or harm others, never again giving them an opportunity to repent or be redeemed.

Not so Phat, but there are steps involved in the act of Confession; first is acknowledging but that is also just the beginning; you must also apologize to those harmed, commit to not making the same error AND also making amends. Ravi and the rest of the Apologists will continue to be known by their fruits and so far there is no evidence that they are marketing some new improved snake oil.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 660 by Phat, posted 12-30-2019 4:18 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Theodoric
Member (Idle past 13 days)
Posts: 7051
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005


Message 662 of 853 (869462)
12-30-2019 5:41 PM
Reply to: Message 660 by Phat
12-30-2019 4:18 PM


Re: Who is On The Throne?
Amazing how Ravi never really apologized or took responsibility for his lying. Yet you "forgive" him. How about listening to people that don't lie so you don't have to forgive them for lying to you.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 660 by Phat, posted 12-30-2019 4:18 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 667 by Phat, posted 02-11-2020 11:29 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7993
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.7


(1)
Message 663 of 853 (869477)
12-31-2019 4:04 AM
Reply to: Message 660 by Phat
12-30-2019 4:18 PM


Re: Who is On The Throne?
Phat writes:

I'll be honest with you. If Jesus really ment those specific words "sell all you have: for every Christian, I would not follow Him.

Why would he say something he didn’t mean? In an entire life he would have said hundreds of thousands of things, we can reasonably suppose that those few that got written down for posterity - guided by god himself you tell us - are to be taken seriously.

The spirit being weak is always the excuse, us being fallen an’ all, but it truth all that’s happening is a that you’ve hit on an inconvenience in the comforting message that you’d rather wasn’t there so you’ll put it to one side and pretend it’s not really meant.

Just like you push the impossibility of a loving god that allows his children to suffer and die to one side. He moves in mysterious ways my arse.

Humankind has created a god shaped comfort blanket covered in thorns that have to be flattened before it’s of any use. But they keep popping back up don’t they?”


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 660 by Phat, posted 12-30-2019 4:18 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18822
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 664 of 853 (869488)
12-31-2019 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 660 by Phat
12-30-2019 4:18 PM


Re: Who is On The Throne?
Phat writes:

If Jesus really ment those specific words "sell all you have: for every Christian, I would not follow Him.


If?

If there is an argument against what Jesus said, for God's sake, tell us what it is. If the apologists have a "better" version, tell us what it is.

I'll repeat what I've said many times before:

1. Elijah told the widow to give him the last of her food, even though she believed she and her son would die as a result.

2. Jesus pointed out the widow who gave her last two mites and He applauded her for it.

3. Jesus told the rich man to sell what he had and give to the poor; the rich man responded exactly as you do.

4. The early church at Rome believed that Jesus meant what He said; they pooled all of their resources - and Ananias and Sapphira were struck down by God for holding back.

There is a definite trend in the Bible.

The only counter-argument that you have presented is that Zacchaeus offered half of what he had. (We are not told whether he got away with it.) Do the apologists have a better argument?

Phat writes:

Apologists indeed do get us off the hook, but then we are faced with answering the charges that we have made up our own religion.


You can be as annoyed as you like but I suppose you won't be able to deny it any more.

Phat writes:

Christians forgive their brothers and sisters and an indictment is not a forever thing.


Forgiveness requires repentance. We don't forgive Charles Manson serially every time he murders somebody. He has to stop.

Ravi Zaccharias lies about what the Bible says. You continue to believe his lies. There is no place for forgiveness there.


"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you...."
-- Rudyard Kipling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 660 by Phat, posted 12-30-2019 4:18 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 665 by Phat, posted 01-01-2020 10:29 AM ringo has responded
 Message 669 by Phat, posted 02-17-2020 4:57 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14741
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 665 of 853 (869539)
01-01-2020 10:29 AM
Reply to: Message 664 by ringo
12-31-2019 11:09 AM


Faith Based Reply To Mike The Wizard
Happy New Year, Mike! This coming from Thugzy to "The Wiz". (Shall we research the word, "Wiz"? ) Of course I am not involved in some ancient Indian Blood Cult, but how thoughtful that you noticed! I am up bright and early on this New Years' day primarily because I believe that it is better to start a new year fresh, sober, and enthusiastic rather than end a year high as a kite, sleeping in late on the morning of the New Year. And before we go any further in this reply, I want everyone to note that I am transferring this post and this discussion from a Science Topic, where Stile lays out a basic evidence-based argument on God to the Apologetic Thread. This post will appear in both threads, but I want to draw a clear line between evidence-based thinking and Biblical Inspiration, which our fascinating friend jar trashes as a PT Barnum Circus sideshow.
***************************************************************
To all who seek to reply to this post, I shall offer you two choices.
Faith Based & Apologetic Responses here.
ringo writes:

If there is an argument against what Jesus said, for God's sake, tell us what it is.


***************************************************************
I am replying to you, Ringo but also to Mike The Wiz from our science topic, Here.

Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha

You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo

“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
"You may not like it, but the dog bites both ankles."~Tangle


This message is a reply to:
 Message 664 by ringo, posted 12-31-2019 11:09 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 666 by ringo, posted 01-01-2020 12:03 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18822
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 666 of 853 (869547)
01-01-2020 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 665 by Phat
01-01-2020 10:29 AM


Re: Faith Based Reply To Mike The Wizard
Phat writes:

I am replying to you, Ringo but also to Mike The Wiz from our science topic, Here.


There is no response to me over there.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 665 by Phat, posted 01-01-2020 10:29 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 668 by Phat, posted 02-17-2020 4:49 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14741
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 667 of 853 (871762)
02-11-2020 11:29 PM
Reply to: Message 662 by Theodoric
12-30-2019 5:41 PM


An Honest Apologist
Theodoric writes:

Amazing how Ravi never really apologized or took responsibility for his lying. Yet you "forgive" him. How about listening to people that don't lie so you don't have to forgive them for lying to you

I'm through with Ravi. He no longer impresses me and is just another Christian Apologist in my book. If everyone recalls, I said earlier in Message 104 that Bart Campolo, a secular humanist chaplain at the University of Cincinnati was my example of an honest apologist. Now, 3 months later, I have gotten to talk with him and he featured me on his Humanize Me podcast. For those interested, the advice he gives me is quite good and it is honest, in my opinion. I am only on the podcast as a recorded voice, but he spends 30 minutes giving me good advice.
In The Pew But Questioning #504

I also had an hour interactive chat with him on Skype. That he took time to talk with me was quite a blessing. Yes, some of what he said hurts, but I feel the tough love of a qualified counselor...a trait that many pastors do not have.

Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.

Edited by Thugpreacha, : better sub title


“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 662 by Theodoric, posted 12-30-2019 5:41 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14741
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 668 of 853 (871996)
02-17-2020 4:49 PM
Reply to: Message 666 by ringo
01-01-2020 12:03 PM


David Platt: Author or Apologist?
I recently purchased David Platt's book on Audible. Something Needs to Change: A Call to Make Your Life Count in a World of Urgent Need I am listening to it the next few days. It looked good. Platt is not a professional apologist but rather an author. My jury is still out whether or not he is trustworthy as a source for contemplation or whether I am merely helping him earn a living. He talks a good talk. Stay tuned.

“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 666 by ringo, posted 01-01-2020 12:03 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14741
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 669 of 853 (871998)
02-17-2020 4:57 PM
Reply to: Message 664 by ringo
12-31-2019 11:09 AM


Re: Who is On The Throne?
ringo writes:

If there is an argument against what Jesus said, for God's sake, tell us what it is. If the apologists have a "better" version, tell us what it is.

I'll repeat what I've said many times before:

1. Elijah told the widow to give him the last of her food, even though she believed she and her son would die as a result.
2. Jesus pointed out the widow who gave her last two mites and He applauded her for it.

3. Jesus told the rich man to sell what he had and give to the poor; the rich man responded exactly as you do.

4. The early church at Rome believed that Jesus meant what He said; they pooled all of their resources - and Ananias and Sapphira were struck down by God for holding back.

There is a definite trend in the Bible.

The only counter-argument that you have presented is that Zacchaeus offered half of what he had. (We are not told whether he got away with it.) Do the apologists have a better argument?
I do. Quite simply, giving everything is more symbolic than literal. Anyone foolish enough to give every spare loonie that they have (including in the bank) away would soon find themselves homeless with the ones they are trying to help.

To be honest, the gambling problem that I struggled with hurt me more than had i simply given that money away. At 60 years old, I count the years until retirement. To me, retiring does not mean sitting around living a good life while others starve or are homeless, but it also does not mean selling all I have and becoming homeless myself. Can I count on Social Security? Can I count that there are enough socialist progressives to find a way to refund Social Security and take care of my basic needs?

This book by David Platt was purchased with those questions in mind. Stay tuned for some feedback as to whether the book has value in influencing my beliefs and actions.

“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 664 by ringo, posted 12-31-2019 11:09 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 670 by ringo, posted 02-18-2020 10:51 AM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18822
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 670 of 853 (872011)
02-18-2020 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 669 by Phat
02-17-2020 4:57 PM


Re: Who is On The Throne?
Phat writes:

Quite simply, giving everything is more symbolic than literal.

So Ananias and Sapphira were "symbolically" killed?

Phat writes:

Anyone foolish enough to give every spare loonie that they have (including in the bank) away would soon find themselves homeless with the ones they are trying to help.

So the church at Rome was foolish?

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 669 by Phat, posted 02-17-2020 4:57 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 671 by Phat, posted 02-19-2020 3:14 AM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14741
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 671 of 853 (872053)
02-19-2020 3:14 AM
Reply to: Message 670 by ringo
02-18-2020 10:51 AM


Loonies, Toonies, and Homelessness
It was a different era. Christians were persecuted and few of them had much money at all. In today's age, there is enough money in the social safety nets that even poor people have enough to eat. My point is this: If you are not poor, why on earth would you make yourself poor?

Look at it this way. If I were virtually homeless to begin with, giving away the last 5 dollars in my pocket would gain me some friends who may help me later on, were they able. If I was a basic worker with a basic rental house, however, I would need more money or I too would be homeless. While true that I could theoretically give many more people $5.00, once I gave a hundred of them that much, I would be unable to pay rent and would soon land out on the park bench with them.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 670 by ringo, posted 02-18-2020 10:51 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 672 by Tangle, posted 02-19-2020 3:33 AM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 673 by ringo, posted 02-19-2020 2:17 PM Phat has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7993
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 672 of 853 (872054)
02-19-2020 3:33 AM
Reply to: Message 671 by Phat
02-19-2020 3:14 AM


Re: Loonies, Toonies, and Homelessness
Phat writes:

My point is this: If you are not poor, why on earth would you ake yourself poor?


It's not hard to understand Phat, it's because that's what your book tells you that you should do. Over and over.

Of course no-one in their right mind would do it, and nobody does - not even Faith who claims to be a biblical literalist, but that's not the point is it? It's very easy to rationalise away the message, but it's still there in black and white.

The churches themselves are the biggest hypocrite of the lot of you, becoming some of the richest institutions in the world.

Matthew 19:21 ESV / 234

Jesus said to him, “If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.”

Proverbs 28:27 ESV / 210

Whoever gives to the poor will not want, but he who hides his eyes will get many a curse.

Mark 12:41-44 ESV / 187

And he sat down opposite the treasury and watched the people putting money into the offering box. Many rich people put in large sums. And a poor widow came and put in two small copper coins, which make a penny. And he called his disciples to him and said to them, “Truly, I say to you, this poor widow has put in more than all those who are contributing to the offering box. For they all contributed out of their abundance, but she out of her poverty has put in everything she had, all she had to live on.”

Luke 21:1-4 ESV / 178

Jesus looked up and saw the rich putting their gifts into the offering box, and he saw a poor widow put in two small copper coins. And he said, “Truly, I tell you, this poor widow has put in more than all of them. For they all contributed out of their abundance, but she out of her poverty put in all she had to live on

Organisation Worth

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints $67.0bn (alleged to be as much as $100.0 billion)
Catholic Church Germany $25bn
Catholic Church Australia $30bn
Church of England $7.8bn
Opus Dei (part of the Catholic Church) $2.8bn
Church of Scientology $2bn
Catholic Church Vatican $30bn

List of wealthiest organizations - Wikipedia

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 671 by Phat, posted 02-19-2020 3:14 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18822
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 673 of 853 (872069)
02-19-2020 2:17 PM
Reply to: Message 671 by Phat
02-19-2020 3:14 AM


Re: Loonies, Toonies, and Homelessness
Phat writes:

It was a different era. Christians were persecuted and few of them had much money at all.

You're making that up.

Phat writes:

My point is this: If you are not poor, why on earth would you make yourself poor?

Look at the story of the widow who gave Elijah her last morsel of food. She was provided for.

Why would you not trust God to take care of you?

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 671 by Phat, posted 02-19-2020 3:14 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 674 by Phat, posted 02-19-2020 3:02 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14741
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 674 of 853 (872072)
02-19-2020 3:02 PM
Reply to: Message 673 by ringo
02-19-2020 2:17 PM


Re: Loonies, Toonies, and Homelessness
ringo writes:

Why would you not trust God to take care of you?
It may be the case that I don't trust ringo to take care of me. Or any of my friends here in Denver. After all, you yourself said that all evidence points to us having to do it ourselves. As for God, I'm not entirely sure what His intentions are.
All I can speak of with any degree of evidence is humans.

Thank God for social security! I am due to receive a modest sum in a few years....which at current rates will pay the rent and the heat and lights. After that is all paid, I will have perhaps $100.00 a week for food and entertainment. I may have to end up using the library computer as you do!

Jesus may provide our needs, and we are charged to help others, but you need to be a bit clearer as to what YOU expect Christians to do in regards to following their book.
ringo writes:

Look at the story of the widow who gave Elijah her last morsel of food. She was provided for.


OK lets have a look.
Elijah and the Widow at Zarephath writes:

7 Some time later the brook dried up because there had been no rain in the land. 8 Then the word of the Lord came to him: 9 “Go at once to Zarephath in the region of Sidon and stay there. I have directed a widow there to supply you with food.” 10 So he went to Zarephath. When he came to the town gate, a widow was there gathering sticks. He called to her and asked, “Would you bring me a little water in a jar so I may have a drink?” 11 As she was going to get it, he called, “And bring me, please, a piece of bread.”

12 “As surely as the Lord your God lives,” she replied, “I don’t have any bread—only a handful of flour in a jar and a little olive oil in a jug. I am gathering a few sticks to take home and make a meal for myself and my son, that we may eat it—and die.”

13 Elijah said to her, “Don’t be afraid. Go home and do as you have said. But first, make a small loaf of bread for me from what you have and bring it to me, and then make something for yourself and your son. 14 For this is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: ‘The jar of flour will not be used up and the jug of oil will not run dry until the day the Lord sends rain on the land.’”

15 She went away and did as Elijah had told her. So there was food every day for Elijah and for the woman and her family. 16 For the jar of flour was not used up and the jug of oil did not run dry, in keeping with the word of the Lord spoken by Elijah.
Looks like she gave the last of what she had--part of it anyway--and it miraculously lasted 7 days. I'm not sure I have enough faith to trust that my last loaf of bread is enough for me while handing out money to the poor hand over fist.

“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 673 by ringo, posted 02-19-2020 2:17 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 675 by ringo, posted 02-19-2020 3:33 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18822
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 675 of 853 (872076)
02-19-2020 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 674 by Phat
02-19-2020 3:02 PM


Re: Loonies, Toonies, and Homelessness
Phat writes:

ringo writes:

Why would you not trust God to take care of you?

It may be the case that I don't trust ringo to take care of me.

What does that have to do with God taking care of you?

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 674 by Phat, posted 02-19-2020 3:02 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 676 by Phat, posted 02-19-2020 4:13 PM ringo has responded

  
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