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Author Topic:   I Know That God Does Not Exist
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 2252 of 3207 (862508)
09-05-2019 5:48 PM
Reply to: Message 2193 by AZPaul3
08-29-2019 4:07 PM


Prager University Makes A Point
Conservative YouTube Channel Prager U. sponsored by Dennis Prager is conservative and admittedly pro-apologetics leaning, but had a valid question and well-thought-out response to this whole idea of a null hypothesis.
Essentially making the argument that there were 4, rather than simply one big bang type of events in the evolution of the universe.
quote:
Science tells us that the universe came into being via The Big Bang. But how do you get from energy and matter to a self-aware human being? That takes three additional Big Bangs that science can't explain.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2193 by AZPaul3, posted 08-29-2019 4:07 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2254 by AZPaul3, posted 09-05-2019 8:22 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 2265 of 3207 (862557)
09-06-2019 1:57 PM
Reply to: Message 2261 by Stile
09-06-2019 12:42 PM


Re: When specifics are required
Stile writes:
My position was, and still is, that "know" is always not absolute. There is always doubt.
And when that doubt is unreasonable - that is "there is no link from reality to imagination that such doubt should be rationally considered" - then the doubt can be ignored.
I want to ignore all unreasonable doubt.
Many many people claim to have been "saved". Granted the concept appears unreasonable and a product of the imagination...particularly given the afterward behavior of some of these people.
Perhaps, however, being saved is an internal confirmation linking imagination to reality. Is it unreasonable to doubt the claim from so many people?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2261 by Stile, posted 09-06-2019 12:42 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2270 by Stile, posted 09-06-2019 2:26 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 2272 by Tangle, posted 09-06-2019 2:56 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 2266 of 3207 (862558)
09-06-2019 2:00 PM
Reply to: Message 2263 by ringo
09-06-2019 1:12 PM


Re: When specifics are required
Stile writes:
Experiment: Look at all our available information and see if God exists or not.
Perhaps if we had access to the minds of believers. Keep in mind that the group known as *we* is composed of both believers and non-believers. I expect that the conclusions would differ, despite your insistence that the definition of *know* should be universal.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2263 by ringo, posted 09-06-2019 1:12 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 2291 of 3207 (862824)
09-13-2019 5:02 PM
Reply to: Message 2290 by Stile
09-13-2019 2:41 PM


Re: When specifics are required
This idea you have that imagination-about-God should be given more rational weight than imagination-about-cakes is the problem.
I would make an argument that it is part of the reason you cannot nor ever will find Him. You essentially place no higher of value on God than you do on a hypothetical cake. The greatest commandment was and is to love the Lord with all your heart, mind, and strength. ringo is basically arguing that you are only used your mind and have not looked hard enough. You respond essentially by saying "why should I?" I can understand your arguments using rationality and the mind. I can't understand nor determine how hard you search with your heart, intuition, and desire.
It seems to me that you have basically laid out a case for why you dont really need Him.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
Subjectivism may very well undermine Christianity.
In the same way that "allowing people to choose what they want to be when they grow up" undermines communism.
~Stile

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2290 by Stile, posted 09-13-2019 2:41 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2294 by Stile, posted 09-16-2019 10:59 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 2312 of 3207 (863963)
10-03-2019 6:30 PM
Reply to: Message 2311 by ringo
10-03-2019 4:35 PM


Re: When specifics are required
Perhaps its a bit like looking for a lost hiker in the wilderness. As each day passes, there is a decreasing chance that they are alive or found a spot in which to survive. ringo points out that we can and should keep looking as life has value. John declares that In Him is Life and that Life is the Light of Men. Stile and ringo both may point out that many without His "Light" supposedly do quite well with their own "Light".

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2311 by ringo, posted 10-03-2019 4:35 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 2313 of 3207 (869154)
12-24-2019 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 1259 by ringo
07-13-2019 11:46 AM


Re: The Rationality Of Irrationality
And on it goes.
Phat writes:
Granted you take the message more serious than I do in that you are an ardent proponent of cultural Marxism, or Socialism, or Communism, or whatever you (or we) choose to name it.
ringo writes:
I call it being a decent human being.
Do Christianity and Marxism Have Anything In Common?
Forbes writes:
Frederick Engels, Karl Marx's sidekick, and benefactor eulogized that Marx's greatest insight was, "men must first of all eat, drink, have shelter and clothing before they can pursue politics, science, art, religion and the like."
Jesus asserted the opposite disavowing that faith is predicated on bodily well-being, "Therefore do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?' . . . But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness" (Matthew 6:31-33).

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1259 by ringo, posted 07-13-2019 11:46 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2314 by ringo, posted 12-24-2019 11:51 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 2315 by jar, posted 12-24-2019 12:07 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 2352 of 3207 (869514)
12-31-2019 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 327 by Stile
03-07-2014 12:01 PM


Re: Do humans even want God by nature?
Stile writes:
The data for this conclusion is overwhelming. The question isn't whether or not the data is reliable or exists... the question is only whether or not you want to accept the conclusion that the evidence is pointing towards.
Phat writes:
I tend to go with jar on this one. How do you test for the supernatural? Some claim to have found God. You perhaps claim that "we" equates to the collective of humanity and that as a collective no objective evidence has ever been found.
quote:
Evidence--the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid.
My question: Evidence of what? God? If I use you and your mind as part of my data I would conclude...upon examining you, that you honestly have no conviction, conceptualization, or belief concerning any God as defined by human literature being objectively real. If, however, I examine my Pastor, I see that he has a conviction, conceptualization, and belief...as well as anecdotal experience concerning at least the Christian concept of God. His behavior reflects it.
Now...you may well argue that due to the fact that you could produce a given atheist who behaves similar to my Pastor---in that he cheerfully feeds the poor, comforts the sick, encourages the young and old alike...without conceptualizing God in any way(bypassing the Jesus thing...remember? Phat--->Jesus----good works vs Stile---->good works) the data thus suggests Jesus and/or God as unneeded and thus not a required conceptualization/belief. Perhaps you believe that God/Jesus would be welcomed by you should evidence/data become available. The dogma suggests, however, that humans by nature do not want God/Jesus. Comments?
Stile writes:
quote:
How do you test for the supernatural? Some claim to have found God.
What's the important part about "finding God"? No one has answered that question with anything that cannot be obtained without God anyway... So, if all the factors about "finding God" are available without God... what does the phrase actually mean?
If it doesn't do anything... then who cares?
You have a point, but I think I remain in the Faith camp for several reasons.
1) I have had subjective experience which I count as evidence.
2) I need God to exist anyway...as long as he is as advertised...loving, powerful, drawing me to my fullest potential (for Him), etc.
I guess, to be honest, God is like a super Dad for me. I fall so far short of the standards that I attribute to Him that it causes me anxiety and fear. To be honest, I literally NEED for God to exist, and having more people agree that He is needed must somehow reinforce my belief.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
"You may not like it, but the dog bites both ankles."~Tangle

This message is a reply to:
 Message 327 by Stile, posted 03-07-2014 12:01 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2372 by Stile, posted 01-02-2020 8:50 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 2353 of 3207 (869516)
12-31-2019 3:08 PM
Reply to: Message 2351 by Faith
12-31-2019 2:08 PM


Re: No evidence = irrational
Faith writes:
I think the irrational belief is that there is life in any other part of the universe myself and that much of the phenomena reported as UFO-related are demonic.
I agree with the UFOs=likely demonic manifestations argument, but I think its a mistake to believe that this one dust speck of a planet is the only place for life. (Intelligent life, at any rate) It really makes our belief out to be quite human-centric. Why would God create a vast universe as a mere prop?
It's similar to why He would flood an entire planet and kill everything simply to carry one family to redemption. I'm not ruling out His power to do so, but if we go that route, what else is he capable of? ringo seems to think He doesn't care.
Tangle agrees and even goes so far as to say that he would be happy if God didn't exist. All I know is if it were proven to me that God did not exist, I would likely have a psychotic episode. I have strong denial mechanisms, but not as strong as you do. Give me a positive word as a reply. And Happy New Year, by the way.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
"You may not like it, but the dog bites both ankles."~Tangle

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2351 by Faith, posted 12-31-2019 2:08 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2355 by Faith, posted 12-31-2019 3:33 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 2356 by Faith, posted 12-31-2019 3:55 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 2354 of 3207 (869517)
12-31-2019 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 2349 by Faith
12-31-2019 1:54 PM


Re: No evidence = irrational
Itrs a tad ironic that Penn Jillette is a staunch atheist.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
"You may not like it, but the dog bites both ankles."~Tangle

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2349 by Faith, posted 12-31-2019 1:54 PM Faith has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 2363 of 3207 (869537)
01-01-2020 9:53 AM
Reply to: Message 390 by mike the wiz
02-02-2018 5:06 PM


Happy New Year, Mike! This coming from Thugzy to "The Wiz". (Shall we research the word, "Wiz"? ) Of course I am not involved in some ancient Indian Blood Cult, but how thoughtful that you noticed! I am up bright and early on this New Years day primarily because I believe that it is better to start a new year fresh, sober, and enthusiastic rather than end a year high as a kite, sleeping in late on the morning of the New Year. And before we go any further in this reply, I want everyone to note that I am transferring this post and this discussion from a Science Topic, where Stile lays out a basic evidence based argument on God to the Apologetic Thread. This post will appear in both threads, but I want to draw a clear line between evidence based thinking and Biblical Inspiration, which our fascinating friend jar trashes as a PT Barnum Circus sideshow.
*******************************************************************
To all who seek to reply to this post, I shall offer you two choices.
No webpage found at provided URL: Faith Based & Apologetic Responses here.
Any Evidential Science Based Responses simply stay here in this topic.
****************************************************************
The "mainstream" explanation for a literal Biblical Flood differs from the "mainstream" explanations for inspired scripture. Lets again pick on our "fascinating online friend" jar of Texas.
MTW replying to Stile writes:
If you personally "know God doesn't exist", you can only go from your lack of knowledge as a personal matter, which is different from empirically proving knowledge or logically arriving at a sound conclusion. So then, yes, in a way you "know God doesn't exist" in the sense that God isn't part of your own reality, but only your own experience, since you argue based on that, largely.
I agree wuith your conclusion, Mike, but there is no way that we can scientifically prove that we *know God* any more than the evidence of our daily ives. EvC and I have argued this basic theme endlessly for quite a number of years. I have mentioned before that I am a believer, and in that realm I have had quite a few subjective experiences which have defined my belief. My critics will charge that I create God in my own imagination, preference, and desired reality. While I can agree with their charges, I emphasize that one thing that you, I, and Faith have in common is that we allow our belief to trump any evidence based arguments.
MTW replying to Stile writes:
This is the problem, you state yourself in your argument that we, "look for the thing" where it is supposed to be or the effects it is supposed to leave, etc...and your problem is that you are only looking at your own experience in not getting any data where others have. But that may well mean that you and those others will only accept a false standard of persuasion, because of psychological bias.
I would argue that many of our ideological opponents allow evidence to trump their belief. The problem is that it waters down their belief until they have none...except for a belief in the validitry of empiracal science.
MTW writes:
Firstly, you and those like you have, "looked for God" according to your own God-like arrogant definition and, "not found God".
Reminds me of this old cartoon

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
"You may not like it, but the dog bites both ankles."~Tangle

This message is a reply to:
 Message 390 by mike the wiz, posted 02-02-2018 5:06 PM mike the wiz has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 2364 of 3207 (869538)
01-01-2020 10:18 AM
Reply to: Message 2362 by jar
01-01-2020 8:33 AM


Re: Unbelievers do not have the capacity to understand spiritual things
jar writes:
I have explained many times what I believe. And yes, all of the evidence shows that not only can you make the Bible mean anything, (but) every Chapter of Club Christian (also) makes the Bible mean what THEY want it to mean.
Well said. Grammarly prompted me to add the two words. I am assuming, of course, that you represent the chapter of Club Christian that YOU belong to. Seeing as how this is an evidenced-based topic, let's go from there.
Mike is used to shooting ducks in a barrel over at Evolution FairyTales, but he has to contend with the likes of you here, as do I.
He does have an argument based loosely on scripture, but I think he gets carried away. But a couple of questions first:
1) Was the Apostle Paul, in your mind, part of the subgroup of "apologist" hucksters?
2) Scientifically speaking, do you see a difference between applying evidence-based thinking to refute the Flood(Times Square BottleNeck Argument) which impressed me, by the way, and evidence-based thinking on human nature, belief, and inspired scripture as well as "inspired Christians"?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
"You may not like it, but the dog bites both ankles."~Tangle

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2362 by jar, posted 01-01-2020 8:33 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2365 by jar, posted 01-01-2020 11:27 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 2400 of 3207 (869641)
01-02-2020 6:19 PM
Reply to: Message 2398 by jar
01-02-2020 4:41 PM


Re: Once again Faith shows she does not believe what the Bible actaully says.
Your example is unclear. Abraham knew the Lord. God was not simply some character on a scroll.
And the U.N. is full of many different relative beliefs, including atheism.
Notice how humble and respectful Abraham is before the Creator of all seen and unseen.
Before the U.N. is prepared to receive Gods mercy they need to collectively learn to respect Him. (and first of all know Him)

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
"You may not like it, but the dog bites both ankles."~Tangle

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2398 by jar, posted 01-02-2020 4:41 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2401 by jar, posted 01-02-2020 7:14 PM Phat has replied
 Message 2402 by PaulK, posted 01-03-2020 1:13 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 2411 of 3207 (869666)
01-03-2020 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 2401 by jar
01-02-2020 7:14 PM


Who Wrote Genesis?
jar writes:
Once again, you are inserting the God made in YOUR image into the story to replace the God described by the author.
To start with, lets determine the "author".
Wiki writes:
Tradition credits Moses as the author of Genesis, as well as the books of Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and most of Deuteronomy, but modern scholars increasingly see them as a product of the 6th and 5th centuries BC.
These critically thinking unbiased modern scholars do a terrible disservice by essentially allowing human wisdom to define and frame the bible apart from the traditional method of believing that God spoke through the original authors. God has been "stripped" of His power and authority by a bunch of human ants who don't even realize that they are being manipulated in the current and ongoing spiritual war.
You of course will tell me I am being dogmatic and claim that the "evidence" shows us that we are most certainly not in a global assault on old ideas.(war)
The Bible itself challenges your "evidence".
Zondervan Academic writes:
With this in mind, we turn now to references to the book of the law of Moses or the book of Moses (with variants) found in biblical books that follow the Pentateuch.
Here are just a few examples:
Joshua 1:7-8a
Be strong and very courageous. Be careful to obey all the law my servant Moses gave you; do not turn from it to the right or to the left, that you may be successful wherever you go. Keep this Book of the Law always on your lips . . .(...)
In the New Testament, when quoting the Pentateuch, people often spoke of Moses being the author. For example, the disciples, referring to Deuteronomy 24:1—4, questioned Jesus, ‘Why then,’ they asked, ‘did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?’ (Matthew 19:7).
Jewish leaders asked Jesus a question based on Deuteronomy 25:5—10 by saying, ‘Teacher,’ they said, ‘Moses told us that if a man dies without having children, his brother must marry the widow and raise up offspring for him’ (Matthew 22:24).
Jesus himself, quoting the fifth commandment (Exodus 20:12; Deuteronomy 5:16) and a case law (Exodus 21:17; Leviticus 20:9), said, For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and mother,’ and ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death (Mark 7:10). For other New Testament references see Mark 12:26; John 1:17, 5:46, 7:23.
In light of the references to Moses’ writing in the Pentateuch and the New Testament citations of the Pentateuch that associate Moses with its composition, it seems reasonable to affirm that the origins of the Pentateuch are connected to this great biblical figure.
2 Chronicles 25:4
Yet he did not put their children to death, but acted in accordance with what is written in the Law, in the Book of Moses, where the Lord commanded . . .
Nehemiah 13:1
On that day the Book of Moses was read aloud in the hearing of the people . . .
These references to the Book or Law of Moses are not necessarily, and until the postexilic period are unlikely, indicating the Pentateuch in its final form as we know it, but still they attest to some body of writing that was connected to the figure of Moses.
Once you start examining the Bible from a human centrist perspective, the inerrancy wears off and the book is exposed as written by fallible humans and even a fallible God character.
Moses and Abraham both knew God. Modern Scholars have twisted it to "prove" that nobody can really know God nor Jesus and that the books have value only in the context of humanist teaching on how to live.
Quite frankly I won't fall for it.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
"You may not like it, but the dog bites both ankles."~Tangle

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2401 by jar, posted 01-02-2020 7:14 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2412 by jar, posted 01-03-2020 12:23 PM Phat has replied
 Message 2413 by Theodoric, posted 01-03-2020 12:48 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 2414 by PaulK, posted 01-03-2020 1:31 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 2415 of 3207 (869687)
01-03-2020 10:37 PM
Reply to: Message 2412 by jar
01-03-2020 12:23 PM


Re: Who Wrote Genesis?
jar writes:
Once you start examining the Bible based on what is actually written, on the actual history of the area and times when the stories were written and the reality of the processes that created the Canon(s), the inerrancy wears off and the Bible is exposed as written by fallible humans and that it even depicts a fallible and often horrific God character.
OK. Having stated this, I am puzzled by your claim to being a believer. All that you could possibly believe in is an unknown God who is unlike anything described in any human literature and who likely does not prefer or cherish humans over any other universal species. What kind of believer is that? And what kind of God? Certainly not one relateable tp us.
Again, this supports my claim that you may as well claim to be a secular humanist and quit trying to plant your flag in both camps.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
"You may not like it, but the dog bites both ankles."~Tangle

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2412 by jar, posted 01-03-2020 12:23 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2418 by jar, posted 01-04-2020 8:41 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 2419 by ringo, posted 01-04-2020 12:18 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 2416 of 3207 (869689)
01-03-2020 10:42 PM
Reply to: Message 2414 by PaulK
01-03-2020 1:31 PM


Re: Who Wrote Genesis?
PaulK writes:
And why is knowing the truth bad?
The truth that you market is the "truth" compiled through human "evidence". The truth I seek to present is that of an eternally alive Jesus Christ, (Gods very human character) communing with humanity. Being an atheist, you support a human-created(or evolving) truth.
The whole point is to be able to commune with God.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
"You may not like it, but the dog bites both ankles."~Tangle

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2414 by PaulK, posted 01-03-2020 1:31 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2417 by PaulK, posted 01-04-2020 2:34 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
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