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Author Topic:   Did the Flood really happen?
RAZD
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Posts: 20714
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Joined: 03-14-2004


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Message 1591 of 2365 (869742)
01-05-2020 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 1578 by Faith
01-04-2020 8:49 PM


Re: Layers build slowly over time ... lots of time
If a rock replaces either a landscape or a waterscape, ...

It's not rock at the time, it is sediment, different types of sediment depending on the deposition environment, but gradually accumulating sediment.

... whether it takes overnight or a million years, it displaces living things. ...

Have you ever walked in a snowstorm? As you walk you keep stepping on the top surface of the snow.

... They die. ...

In the same way things die in the world today -- old age, disease, predation -- but there are also survivors that live, adapting to the new surface just as a person walking in a snowstorm adapts to the new surface.

Individuals die, but the population does not go extinct. Generation by generation they adapt to the changing surface.

Animal life-forms adapt to the new surface by walking on it and starting new animal growth.

Plant life-forms adapt to the new surface by growing up and starting new plant growth.

This is why we find fossils of Brachiopods with their stalks attached to shells of older Brachiopods.

And all life forms can continue to reproduce ... during periods of normal deposition over time, such as what we experience today. It certainly is not burying people and plants and animals in most sectors of the earth

... They do not pass on their genes let alone evolve into something else.

All life forms do continue to reproduce and pass on their genes.

It is only in special cases where the rate of deposition is too large to adapt to it that there are mass killings -- such as when Vesuvius erupted and buried Pompeii, but those are special cases.

Message 1579 replies:

First result, if there was anything living the aquarium when you started this process, it died long before it was completely "full of wet dirt."

Why? You added a handful of dirt to the aquarium, how does that affect what is living inside? Would goldfish just fall down dead? Would seaweed just stop living? No they wouldn't, and neither is the ongoing life on the earth killed off by the current depositions occurring today.

What effect would a second handful of dirt make? Answers with details Faith, not assertions.

Note that this experiment has been carried out many times and it doesn't result in the death of all living things in the tank. Much of it escapes with the water overflowing out of the tank (or ponds), other life forms adapt. Some die, but reproduce beforehand and the offspring survive -- new plant life sets roots into the new layers for instance.

The ecological succession of a pond to a bog to a meadow is due to the accumulation of silts and sands in the pond over time, the life adapts.

What on earth do you think you are trying to prove by this? My point has been that the sediment/rock will DISPLACE LIVING THINGS in this "time period" whether landscape or marinescape, and obviously that is exactly what would happen. ...

But not the dead things that died of old age, disease or predation, their remnants would be gradually buried by the accumulating sediments and become fossils, preserving a record of life at that point in time of deposition/sedimentation.

Yes, generation by generation the living species would adapt to the new surface, living, surviving, reproducing, and as the individuals die of old age, disease or predation, their remnants would be gradually buried by the accumulating sediments, preserving a record of life at that point in time of deposition/sedimentation. One that is slightly different from the ones below, as we have seen from studying the evidence.

Yes, they get "displaced" generation by generation by generation, gradually upward, to live, survive, and breed on a new surface made by the deposition of sediment, leaving behind the remnants of those that died, gradually being buried by the sediment. Just as you can continue to walk on the new surface of snow in a snowstorm, and if you drop something it gets buried by the snow, your steps get buried, but you are still walking on top, on the surface environment, you are still living.

... They'd get buried and possibly fossilize; but they'd no longer be living and passing on their genes.

Such is the case for all living things even today, when you die you no longer pass on your genes, but that doesn't mean that you never have does it? Individuals in each generation survives, reproduces and dies while succeeding generations continue to survive and reproduce, generation after generation. Adapting to the new environment as they do.

Do you know what "Marine Snow" is?

quote:
In the deep ocean, marine snow is a continuous shower of mostly organic detritus falling from the upper layers of the water column. It is a significant means of exporting energy from the light-rich photic zone to the aphotic zone below which is referred to as the biological pump. Export production is the amount of organic matter produced in the ocean by primary production that is not recycled (remineralised) before it sinks into the aphotic zone. Because of the role of export production in the ocean's biological pump, it is typically measured in units of carbon (e.g. mg C m−2 d−1).The term was first coined by the explorer William Beebe as he observed it from his bathysphere. As the origin of marine snow lies in activities within the productive photic zone, the prevalence of marine snow changes with seasonal fluctuations in photosynthetic activity and ocean currents. Marine snow can be an important food source for organisms living in the aphotic zone, particularly for organisms which live very deep in the water column.

Do you remember the Pelagic/Calcareous (Coccolith/Foram) Ooze from Walther's Law diagrams? That is the accumulation of Marine Snow over time. It settles very slowly compared to the other sediments.

This Walther's Law image also shows the sediments sorted by grain size with the largest grain sediments at the shore edge and the finest grain size sediments in the deep ocean furthest away from the shore.

Note that a mature shoreline would mean that each of these fascies are present, together with the evidence of life forms associated with them, from shore life to intertidal life, to shallow water life to deep water life.

Time is why, real time extending billions of years into the past. The earth is very very very old. Get used to it.

Enjoy

Edited by RAZD, : .

Edited by RAZD, : .


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 1578 by Faith, posted 01-04-2020 8:49 PM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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dad
Member
Posts: 337
Joined: 05-29-2020


Message 1592 of 2365 (876821)
05-29-2020 2:23 AM
Reply to: Message 1591 by RAZD
01-05-2020 2:20 PM


Re: Layers build slowly over time ... lots of time
quote:
In the same way things die in the world today

That depends on when something died and what it was. In the case of Adam, we are told he went back to dust. No fossil possible.

Edited by dad, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 18755
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 1593 of 2365 (876844)
05-29-2020 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 1592 by dad
05-29-2020 2:23 AM


Re: Layers build slowly over time ... lots of time
dad writes:

In the case of Adam, we are told he went back to dust. No fossil possible.


You're shooting a lot of creationists in the foot. They like to claim that, "There should be a lot more fossils," but now you're agreeing with reality.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1592 by dad, posted 05-29-2020 2:23 AM dad has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1594 by dad, posted 05-29-2020 2:52 PM ringo has responded

  
dad
Member
Posts: 337
Joined: 05-29-2020


Message 1594 of 2365 (876854)
05-29-2020 2:52 PM
Reply to: Message 1593 by ringo
05-29-2020 12:25 PM


Re: Layers build slowly over time ... lots of time
I try to agree with reality.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 18755
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 1595 of 2365 (876863)
05-29-2020 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 1594 by dad
05-29-2020 2:52 PM


Re: Layers build slowly over time ... lots of time
dad writes:

I try to agree with reality.


Then you'll have to give up the Flood fairy tale.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1594 by dad, posted 05-29-2020 2:52 PM dad has responded

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 Message 1596 by dad, posted 05-29-2020 7:07 PM ringo has responded

  
dad
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Posts: 337
Joined: 05-29-2020


Message 1596 of 2365 (876873)
05-29-2020 7:07 PM
Reply to: Message 1595 by ringo
05-29-2020 4:22 PM


Re: Layers build slowly over time ... lots of time
You will need to give up your old ages fable.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1595 by ringo, posted 05-29-2020 4:22 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1597 by JonF, posted 05-29-2020 7:21 PM dad has responded
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JonF
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Posts: 6169
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 1597 of 2365 (876879)
05-29-2020 7:21 PM
Reply to: Message 1596 by dad
05-29-2020 7:07 PM


Re: Layers build slowly over time ... lots of time
The age of the Earth and Universe are as close to a fact as science can come. There is so much solid evidence and consilience to do it justice posting in a forum like this. Assuming you aren't familiar with that evidence, Radiometric Dating: A Christian Perspective is a good place to begin. That's far from all the evidence but it's a start.

I'll be glad to answer any reasonably specific questions you have.

Edited by JonF, : No reason given.


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 Message 1596 by dad, posted 05-29-2020 7:07 PM dad has responded

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dad
Member
Posts: 337
Joined: 05-29-2020


Message 1598 of 2365 (876881)
05-29-2020 7:30 PM
Reply to: Message 1597 by JonF
05-29-2020 7:21 PM


Re: Layers build slowly over time ... lots of time
Creation was presumably responsible for some of the ratios of isotopes we see that are now in a process of decay. There was also the former nature that was responsible for some of the ratios, as there had to have been some processes in effect in that nature also. Then there is our present nature that is responsible for a bit of the ratios. You have assumed that our nature dunnit all! Prove it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1597 by JonF, posted 05-29-2020 7:21 PM JonF has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1599 by AZPaul3, posted 05-29-2020 10:55 PM dad has responded
 Message 1601 by JonF, posted 05-30-2020 6:03 AM dad has not yet responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5309
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 1599 of 2365 (876885)
05-29-2020 10:55 PM
Reply to: Message 1598 by dad
05-29-2020 7:30 PM


Re: Layers build slowly over time ... lots of time
You're the one saying there were two separate natures. Based on what?

You prove it!


Factio Republicana delenda est.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1598 by dad, posted 05-29-2020 7:30 PM dad has responded

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 Message 1600 by dad, posted 05-30-2020 2:27 AM AZPaul3 has responded

  
dad
Member
Posts: 337
Joined: 05-29-2020


Message 1600 of 2365 (876893)
05-30-2020 2:27 AM
Reply to: Message 1599 by AZPaul3
05-29-2020 10:55 PM


Re: Layers build slowly over time ... lots of time
You are the one saying the present nature represents the future and far past on earth. Prove it. You have the science claim.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1599 by AZPaul3, posted 05-29-2020 10:55 PM AZPaul3 has responded

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JonF
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Posts: 6169
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 1601 of 2365 (876896)
05-30-2020 6:03 AM
Reply to: Message 1598 by dad
05-29-2020 7:30 PM


Re: Layers build slowly over time ... lots of time
I've provided and explained evidence for the mainstream view. You haven't posted any substantial response, but you have made positive claims. You said you would always provide evidence for your claims. We knew that was false when you wrote it, and we have seen that we were right. You're just making up BS as you go along. You are far too ignorant to have any useful or interesting discussion with you.

Bye-bye


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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 5309
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 1602 of 2365 (876899)
05-30-2020 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 1600 by dad
05-30-2020 2:27 AM


Re: Layers build slowly over time ... lots of time
There is only the one nature because of the evidences that JonF, RAZD, PaulK, Percy, edge and others have already provided in this thread.

It's your turn.


Factio Republicana delenda est.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1600 by dad, posted 05-30-2020 2:27 AM dad has responded

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Admin
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Posts: 12705
From: EvC Forum
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Message 1603 of 2365 (876903)
05-30-2020 11:57 AM


Moderator Request
Emphasis in the science forums is on fact based discussion. Assertions unsupported by facts should be avoided. Familiarity with the major consensuses of science and the supporting data is expected. Science threads with specific topics should not be turned into remedial science courses.

There's a good reason for this. Without this the basics of science could be challenged in every science thread, turning them all into discussions of science basics instead of the original topic.

Challenging any particular basic aspect of science should be done in separate threads which can be proposed over at Proposed New Topics.

Edited by Admin, : Grammar.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

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ringo
Member
Posts: 18755
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 1604 of 2365 (876908)
05-30-2020 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 1596 by dad
05-29-2020 7:07 PM


Re: Layers build slowly over time ... lots of time
dad writes:

However, science claims must be supported in ways other than beliefs.
The main story of Noah and the flood has not changed.


Is that your best argument? "I know you are but what am I?"

At least try to link your fairy tale to reality.


"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1596 by dad, posted 05-29-2020 7:07 PM dad has not yet responded

  
dad
Member
Posts: 337
Joined: 05-29-2020


Message 1605 of 2365 (876915)
05-30-2020 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 1602 by AZPaul3
05-30-2020 10:56 AM


Re: Layers build slowly over time ... lots of time
False. Beliefs are not evidence, they are just beliefs painted onto evidences. You must defend the premise, the basis for the claims. Not spam more claims based on the same faulty premise that you cannot support.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1602 by AZPaul3, posted 05-30-2020 10:56 AM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
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