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Author Topic:   Iraq needed Saddam?
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 50 of 133 (730263)
06-26-2014 9:32 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by nwr
06-24-2014 1:23 AM


Re: The evcforum Iraq micro-poll in January 2003
nwr writes:
If I had voted, it would have been an unequivocal no. I had been saying that to my friends.
My main reason, was that I expected such a war to become another quagmire, somewhat like Vietnam.
Me too. In retrospect, it almost seems like the main reason for that war was to provide two trillion worth of business to arms merchants and to test weapons.
"They" would deny it, of course.

When I use a word, Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, it means just what I choose it to meannothing more nor less.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by nwr, posted 06-24-2014 1:23 AM nwr has replied

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 Message 51 by nwr, posted 06-26-2014 10:06 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 53 of 133 (869919)
01-08-2020 3:53 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Minnemooseus
02-24-2007 11:13 PM


A Timely Old Topic 13 Years Hence
Moose writes:
While Saddam definitely was excessive and criminal in his actions, wasn't he actually a stabilizing force in the Middle East?
I personally suspect that a more moderate, but perhaps still rather ruthless version of Saddam is what Iraq needed and needs. What is going to be put into place, that will work better? I have no idea.
And, of course, there is always the ugly question of to what degree the United States were significant contributors to Saddam's excesses? Remember that photo of buddy-buddy Saddam and Donald Rumsfeld(?)
Moose writes:
I'm not denying that Saddam was a very bad person. The question is, does Iraq need a "bad" (but not "very bad") person in order to function? Is Iraq now looking at decades of civil war, perhaps until a neo-Saddam finally takes charge?
In light of recent events, it seems to me that Moose's old topic is again quite timely.
Archer Opteryx writes:
Surely you realize this is still terribly vague. For this question to make enough sense for anyone to discuss it in a practical way, more clarity is required about the kind of regime you propose. Specifically, what do you mean by 'bad, but not very bad'? What do you mean by 'function'?
Omnivorous writes:
The Shiites are the majority in Iraq as in Iran--most other Middle Eastern nations have different demographics. Democracy in Iraq means Shiite rule, a prescription for ethnic revenge and a regime that supports terrorism and revolution in the name of "radical" Islam.
The GOP has always portrayed itself as the pragmatic, realpolitik party, but the geopolitical ignorance and arrogance of the U.S. invasion was monumental. We have sacrificed thousands of American lives, shattered tens of thousands of others, and caused the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis, while at the same time alienating most of the world's Muslims, backhanding most of our allies, and strengthening the regimes most opposed to our interests. The likely result of "democracy" in Iraq will be a horror show of sectarian bloodletting and the destabilization of other Sunni-dominated states such as Saudi Arabia.
That guy that Trump killed--Soleimani and that other Iraqi guy...were they the authority in Iraq? If so, we seem to have shot ourselves in the foot--again.
Percy,in another topic writes:
The US and the world are not a safer place after Soleimani's assassination. Americans are being warned to leave Iraq and the surrounding region. More troops are being sent to the Middle East. Homeland Security has been placed on higher alert. Our cyber targets are being warned to expect increased attacks. Security is being stepped up at our embassies around the world, as well as for our senior military officials. Our navy is stepping up its alertness in the Persian Gulf. Great Britain has just dispatched two destroyers to the region to protect British shipping.
Soleimani was responsible for many deaths, including Americans. He required our careful and continuous attention. But Trump's assassination of Soleimani will cause a greater number of American deaths and place an increased number of American lives at risk.
Comments?
Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.
Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
"You may not like it, but the dog bites both ankles."~Tangle

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Minnemooseus, posted 02-24-2007 11:13 PM Minnemooseus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by jar, posted 01-08-2020 5:40 PM Phat has replied
 Message 55 by Minnemooseus, posted 01-09-2020 1:16 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 56 of 133 (869986)
01-10-2020 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by jar
01-08-2020 5:40 PM


Why the Islamic world might be annoyed by the West?.
jar writes:
Another topic I believe is essential was the one from 2006 on why the Islamic World might be annoyed with us. It is at So let's look at why the Islamic world might be annoyed by the West?. Our sins will come due and the bill will get paid.
I will examine your topic next.
One aspect of old threads being revisited that intrigues me is reading the (dated) responses from many of our intelligent members. jar has always insisted that one needs to understand politics from a historical perspective, a task which I have little time to pursue. Perhaps if someone were to point out a useful book or two it would help, but to be honest I don't really care about it all. My goal is no to bring about a global consensus. The reason, among others, is that I and my "group" of likeminded regional inhabitants may actually lose ground in such a deal. Flipping this attitude, I can see why many other global regional populations may well feel the same way. Perhaps they are tired of the Western mindset that uses them rather than including them as equals with the Western populations. It really does get rather complex.
I did notice that many of the older comments in this thread brang up issues that are current affairs in the world today. Some examples:
Chioptera in 2007 writes:
I do agree that a lot of the problems of the third world do stem as a legacy of colonialism, and the old "divide and conquer" tactics of exacerbating (or even creating) tribal rivalries is a part of the problem. But another major problem is that democracy in the developing world (and the result that the resources of each developing nation would be used to benefit the people of that nation, not the Western economies) runs counter to the interests of the West. As a result, either stability is deliberately thwarted by Western policies, or it is the inadvertent result of political and economic policies forced onto the developing nations.
As true now as it was then.
Omni in 2007 writes:
It seems likely that only an authoritarian regime could hold Iraq together--the Brits and the French drew the current lines which contain the Shiites, Sunnis, and Kurds--groups so mutually repelling that removing Sadam was like loosing nuclear bonds.
The predictable outcome of toppling Saddam--effective tripartite civil war--was both predictable and predicted. The neoconservatives assured us that we'd be welcomed as liberators by the "Iraqis"--an entity that has no real existence.
The Shiites are the majority in Iraq as in Iran--most other Middle Eastern nations have different demographics. Democracy in Iraq means Shiite rule, a prescription for ethnic revenge and a regime that supports terrorism and revolution in the name of "radical" Islam.
The GOP has always portrayed itself as the pragmatic, realpolitik party, but the geopolitical ignorance and arrogance of the U.S. invasion was monumental. We have sacrificed thousands of American lives, shattered tens of thousands of others, and caused the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis, while at the same time alienating most of the world's Muslims, backhanding most of our allies, and strengthening the regimes most opposed to our interests. The likely result of "democracy" in Iraq will be a horror show of sectarian bloodletting and the destabilization of other Sunni-dominated states such as Saudi Arabia.
It reminds me of the WWII cartoon with two weary GIs: "Well, we liberated the hell outta that town." Ruins smoke and crumble in the background. Or the real Vietnam military spokesman 30 years later: "We had to destroy the village in order to save it."
I always believed that in all honesty, we did not want the people of Iraq to make a peaceful nation IF it was not going to give us (The U.S.) access to the oil. Lately, our troops and western contractors were getting attacked. This Iranian strongman had to be eliminated, and only Trump had the guts (or stupidity) to do it. That makes him a hero among Western Capitalist interests, but a villain to our ever hopeful Leftist Globalists who want all people to have an equal opportunity. Reality shows me that this dream won't happen. In the interests of our own pocketbooks, we won't allow it.
Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
"You may not like it, but the dog bites both ankles."~Tangle

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by jar, posted 01-08-2020 5:40 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by jar, posted 01-10-2020 12:47 PM Phat has replied
 Message 59 by Phat, posted 01-10-2020 3:06 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 58 of 133 (869995)
01-10-2020 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by jar
01-10-2020 12:47 PM


Re: Why the Islamic world might be annoyed by the West?.
They fell. What complicates matters now are two things. We will always have the power to prevent anyone from possessing our land, and the world is interconnected and global now. One nation does not simply fall without "help" from others. If they refuse to help us, it may trigger a major war. Not that we are not seemingly causing such incendiary events ourselves anyway. The chickens will come home to roost and the bill will get paid. But in a globally connected economy, EVERYONE will end up paying off the bill.
Now regarding your old topic:
Modulous writes:
Manchester has a lot of Muslims living in it, and I used to live in one of the most famous Muslim gathering places in the UK. The small minority of extremists that I encountered would hearken back to the defeat of Constantinople (1453). For reasons that are not anti-Islamic in nature, it ranks highly on my non-existant list of historical events that I would change if I could.
Anyway, the height of the Ottoman empire was not for another couple of centuries when (and it surprises many to learn it) it stretched as far as Austria. This culminated in the 1683 battle of Vienna which the Turks lost (nobody messes with the Hapsburgs!), and this was the start of the (slow) decline of the Ottoman Empire. The Turks didn't just give up and go home, and the battle for Austria continued. However, just over a decade later they were forced to sign the Treaty of Karlowitz which meant they lost Hungary, and some of eastern Europe (Transylvania included...actually it's my interest in Translyvanian history that provides me with the indirect interest in the Ottoman empire) to the Austrians.
This strengthened the Hapsburgs massively meaning the Ottoman Empire would have difficulty regaining any kind of hold on Europe again. The Hapsburg's influence of course was felt with the assasination of the heir apparant which lead to WWI which I'm coming to
Before we get there though we should consider the 18th Century. I find it very boring, but the upshot is that the Turks lost even more power to the Russians after a sequence of wars. The Russians became the next big concern for Europe. The UK was trying to keep the Ottoman Empire stable at this time to maintain some kind of balance of power. Without them, Russia would be unstoppable. Having the port city of Constantinople and total access to the Black Sea would not be good.
This takes us to the more interesting 19th Century and Napoleon. With Napoleon taking sides with Russia against everyone else, things were looking bad, but Napolean made the mistake that Hitler was to replicate. He invaded Russia and lost shortly afterwards.
The Great Powers took sides with Greece in her quest for independence from the Ottoman Empire. The Ottoman's didn't take kindly but after a quick war with Russia had to let Greece go. More squabbling leading up to the Crimean War which ended badly for the Ottomans; basically the real end to the Empire it might argued (at least as a significant power).
After this came WWI; the general era that jar wishes to discuss.
I have some questions regarding this whole historic prelude up until now.
I mentioned globalism, a position that conservative critics charged Obama with supporting and which the good guy/dictator Trump seeks to implode or at least separate the US from(which makes no sense in the event we ourselves implode, for we would then need to lean on globalism)--
  • Do the Western Powers still think that they can arrogantly push around these emerging cultures such as Iran/Iraq/Syria? Seems obvious that both Russia(historically seeking a stable warm water port) and China have allied themselves with Iran. Then we have this whole question about Trump's relation with Vladamir Putin. I suspect that in light of modern reality, it is the wealthy businessmen of the West who would actually sell their own people down the river in the interests of preserving the wealth. Trump mentioned spending trillions of dollars in new equipment in a Mideast conflict if necessary. Are we so stupid as to allow that so that the major arms stocks rise and we build still more equipment at the risk of imploding our own national debt and hoisting the bill upon the western middle class? That truly would be evil--a betrayal by our own wealthy oligarchs. And Putin and Trump might even agree on that one..

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
    "~Thugpreacha
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
    ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
    "You may not like it, but the dog bites both ankles."~Tangle

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 57 by jar, posted 01-10-2020 12:47 PM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 61 by jar, posted 01-10-2020 3:27 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 59 of 133 (869997)
    01-10-2020 3:06 PM
    Reply to: Message 56 by Phat
    01-10-2020 11:38 AM


    Re: Why the Islamic world might be annoyed by the West?.
    Omni in 2007 writes:
    The Shiites are the majority in Iraq as in Iran--most other Middle Eastern nations have different demographics. Democracy in Iraq means Shiite rule, a prescription for ethnic revenge and a regime that supports terrorism and revolution in the name of "radical" Islam.
    Could it be that we purposefully provoked Radical Islam in order to have someone to blame?
    One could argue that those people do indeed need to grow up and quit that religious garbage. If they expect to participate in a modern world, that is. Of course you likely will turn it around on me and say the same thing about US Christian Nationalism. Difference being we need it to guard our wealth while they need Islam to guard their culture and prevent getting swallowed up by global Capitalism. If they have Democracy and Capitalism, they probably want their own brand and not be forced to feed ours.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
    "~Thugpreacha
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
    ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
    "You may not like it, but the dog bites both ankles."~Tangle

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 56 by Phat, posted 01-10-2020 11:38 AM Phat has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 60 of 133 (869998)
    01-10-2020 3:24 PM
    Reply to: Message 57 by jar
    01-10-2020 12:47 PM


    Re: Why the Islamic world might be annoyed by the West?.
    Modulous writes:
    There is a difference between a resource that is shared by several countries being cut off by one country, (rather) than a resource that belongs to one country which decides to limit selling that resource to its advantage.
    Western powers may argue that a lot of the infrastructure of the oilfields was installed by our contractors with our money. Thus, that oil is not nor ever should be simply Irans or iraqs to do with what they want. What if they decided to sell only to China, for example? We have a stake in that resource and feel we always should, I think.
    Iano. in 2006 writes:
    This question of 'ownership' is spurious. Ownership is what the world system is prepared to put up with for the sake of peace and quiet. You own a lake but don't own a river: arbitary lines in the sand.
    This is about lessons to be learned. And there is a clear historical one. Don't grab tigers by the tail
    jar, in 2006 writes:
    You have made your point totally clear, and the Islamic world has heard. If the West determines they want something, they have the power to take it and consider it their right.
    Thank you for making it clear that might makes right.
    Isn't it still that way? If Trump wants to make America great again, we need to be prepared not to surrender the stakes we have in the Middle East. We spent several trillion dollars in wars there, and we won't simply walk away and give it over to Iran and Iraq to sell to China.
    jar writes:
    The next issue that needs to be looked at is the Sykes-Picot Agreement. It was the result of secret negotiations between France and Great Britain where they agrred to divide up the Middle East into spheres of influence. There were four basic areas, one of Direct and Full control to each of the two Great Powers, and one each where the Great Powers would be the sole influence.
    The Middle east and it's resources were thus divided up to be exploited by France and Great Britain, with a slight nod to Italy.
    You can read about the Sykes-Picot Agreement here and more here.
    The agreement was to be kept secret, with due notification to the governments of other Great Powers such as Russia and Japan but was not meant to be generally published. As to the claims of Italy, they are addressed in a single sentence:
    I would also venture to remind your excellency that the conclusion of the present agreement raises, for practical consideration, the question of claims of Italy to a share in any partition or rearrangement of turkey in Asia, as formulated in article 9 of the agreement of the 26th April 1915, between Italy and the allies.
    OK, so what? Again, we are not simply going to let go of what we have spent over a hundred years securing.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
    "~Thugpreacha
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
    ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
    "You may not like it, but the dog bites both ankles."~Tangle

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 57 by jar, posted 01-10-2020 12:47 PM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 63 by jar, posted 01-10-2020 3:36 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 62 of 133 (870001)
    01-10-2020 3:30 PM
    Reply to: Message 61 by jar
    01-10-2020 3:27 PM


    Re: Why the Islamic world might be annoyed by the West?.
    Internet writes:
    One of the most well-known examples of an oligarchy in history is the Soviet Union. Today, this form of government is still practiced in some nations, including: Russia. China.
    quote:
    Oligarchy--
    a small group of people having control of a country, organization, or institution.
    "the ruling oligarchy of military men around the president"
    a country governed by an oligarchy.
    "the English aristocratic oligarchy of the 19th century"
    government by an oligarchy.
    Let me guess. It has always been that way. There is nothing new under the sun.
    Trumps supporters are thus clueless about what genie they let out of the bottle.
    Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.
    Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
    "~Thugpreacha
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
    ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
    "You may not like it, but the dog bites both ankles."~Tangle

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 61 by jar, posted 01-10-2020 3:27 PM jar has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 64 of 133 (870003)
    01-10-2020 4:11 PM
    Reply to: Message 63 by jar
    01-10-2020 3:36 PM


    Re: Why the Islamic world might be annoyed by the West?.
    I understand you don't want to have to study history and reality but guess what? ...
    I do my fair share.
    How U.S. Economic Warfare Provoked Japan’s Attack on Pearl Harbor
    I also know how our military has essentially surrounded China---the one nation most likely to be our major rival in the next 30 years. They are no pushover...we likely would lose such a war...which calls into question trumps Trade War strategies...unless we see it as an inevitable conflict anyway.
    US-China trade war backfires as domestic firms suffer
    Americans have paid an extra $46 billion in tariffs since the start of the China trade war, according to new data
    The Coming War On China
    quote:
    When the United States, the world’s biggest military power, decided that China, the second largest economic power, was a threat to its imperial dominance, two-thirds of US naval forces were transferred to Asia and the Pacific. This was the ‘pivot to Asia', announced by President Barack Obama in 2011. China, which in the space of a generation had risen from the chaos of Mao Zedong's ‘Cultural Revolution’ to an economic prosperity that has seen more than 500 million people lifted out of poverty, was suddenly the United States's new enemy.
    The build-up of naval forces would reinforce the US's already overwhelmingly superior military position in the region. Seldom referred to in the Western media, 400 American bases surround China with ships, missiles and troops, in an arc that extends from Australia north through the Pacific to Japan, Korea and across Eurasia to Afghanistan and India.
    The Coming War on China is John Pilger's most recent film — his 60th documentary and arguably his most prescient. Completed in the month Donald Trump was elected US President, the film investigates the manufacture of a ‘threat’ and the beckoning of a nuclear confrontation.
    The film is marked in chapters. Chapter 1 is set in the remote Marshall Islands, in the Pacific, which the United States took over as a United Nations ‘trust territory’ in 1945 with an obligation to ‘protect the population’s health and wellbeing’. From 1946 to 1958, the US exploded the equivalent of one Hiroshima bomb every day in the islands, contaminating its people and environment.
    Filming on irradiated Bikini Atoll, which cannot be safely inhabited today, perhaps ever, Pilger describes the testing in 1954 of the world's first hydrogen bomb, codenamed Bravo, which vaporised an entire island, leaving a dark chasm a mile wide in Bikini's beautiful lagoon. The inhabitants had been moved to a nearby atoll, Rongelap, where the ‘unexpected’ fallout endowed them with multiple cancers.
    Declassified documents describe a secret programme originally designed to test the effects of radiation on mice and used in the Marshall Islands on human beings. A US Atomic Energy official of the time describes the island of Rongelap as ‘by far the most contaminated place on Earth’.
    The human guinea pigs were regularly monitored and underwent scientific examination. Many suffered thyroid cancer, deformities appeared in babies and countless survivors of the original blast died from radiation poisoning. A claims tribunal was set up and quickly ran out of money. The most moving interviews in the film are with islanders, mostly elderly women, who have survived, precariously, in poverty.
    Today, the largest of the Marshall Islands, Kwajalein, is home to one of the United States’s most secretive bases, a missile launch pad designed as a ‘stepping stone to Asia and beyond’ and aimed at China.
    Chapter 2 describes China's remarkable rise. Using rare archive film, Pilger describes ‘the century of humiliation’, when the Chinese were depicted as the ‘yellow peril’ in the West and racial stereotypes were a staple of Hollywood. Author James Bradley describes the opium trade and the colonisation by Britain and the other imperial powers. ‘The American industrial revolution was funded by huge pools of money from illegal drugs in the biggest market in the world, China,’ he says.
    The 1949 Communist revolution marked the end of foreign exploitation but also, ironically, the beginning of a China that almost no ‘expert’ in the West had predicted. ‘Today,’ says Pilger, standing against the ultra-modern skyline of Shanghai, ‘China has matched America at its own great game of capitalism — and that is unforgivable.’
    Four hundred miles away, on the Japanese island of Okinawa, 32 American military installations form the front line of a coming war with China. Fumiko Shimabukuro, aged 87, is one of the leaders of a non-violent resistance challenging Washington’s ‘pivot to Asia’. They want the bases closed and point to a warning from the past. In 1962, during the Cuban missile crisis, American nuclear missiles were ordered to be launched at China, Russia and North Korea by an officer who, it appears, had lost his mind. Only luck — and the vigilance of another officer — allowed his moment of madness to be countermanded. In a memorable sequence, one of the 1962 missile crew describes how the world was almost destroyed ‘by mistake’.
    In 2015, Pilger reports, the US Navy and its regional allies, including Australia, rehearsed a blockade that would cut China’s lifelines of oil, trade and raw materials. Today, President Trump is waging a trade war against China, where the United States's biggest companies, such as Apple, are based: the source of a trade deficit for which China is cast, in Trump's world, as the ‘bad guy’. In the meantime, China has built military airstrips in the disputed Spratly Islands, in the South China Sea, and is reported to have placed its nuclear missiles on ‘high alert’.
    The Coming War on China was broadcast on ITV in the UK and SBS in Australia, and seen in many other countries, including China, where a pirated version was shown to possibly its biggest audience. ‘It's not the fairest way to distribute a film,’ said Pilger, ‘but I was delighted. The true story of China and America needs to be told, especially in Australia, where, fuelled by America, an anti-China propaganda campaign seems to be inviting a military reaction.’
    But this is off-topic. Let's get back to Iraq, Iran, and the Islamic sphere. China only has relevance due to being an ally of Iran.
    Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.
    Edited by Thugpreacha, : refocus

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
    "~Thugpreacha
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
    ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
    "You may not like it, but the dog bites both ankles."~Tangle

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 63 by jar, posted 01-10-2020 3:36 PM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 65 by jar, posted 01-10-2020 5:27 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 66 of 133 (870029)
    01-11-2020 3:04 AM
    Reply to: Message 65 by jar
    01-10-2020 5:27 PM


    Re: Why the Islamic world might be annoyed by the West?.
    jar writes:
    The issue is that the US has built a civilization based on taking resources from everyone else; the Iranians, the Nicaraguans, the Iraqis, the Colombians, the Native Americans, ... the list is near endless.
    Is there any reason that the rest of the world should continue to let us take their resources?
    If they suddenly stopped, would it push a large portion of us into poverty? If so, count on a war. It is irrelevant what we did years ago. All that counts is how our standard of living is now. And if such a war occurred, we may lose it but at least we would go down swinging. For many years, we have helped many people. If they betray us, everyone will suffer.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
    "~Thugpreacha
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
    ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
    "You may not like it, but the dog bites both ankles."~Tangle

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 65 by jar, posted 01-10-2020 5:27 PM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 67 by Faith, posted 01-11-2020 5:35 AM Phat has not replied
     Message 68 by jar, posted 01-11-2020 7:16 AM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 74 of 133 (870078)
    01-11-2020 4:34 PM
    Reply to: Message 68 by jar
    01-11-2020 7:16 AM


    Why The base Middle (Working) Class Might Be Annoyed By Globalism.
    jar writes:
    There is only one reason that Iran does not sell us oil and that is because we decided to place sanctions on Iranian Oil.
    Well that *was* stupid. It makes me think that the top 10% are really running this country and its policies to the detriment of the middle class and poor. Now I am a self proclaimed political moderate, but when it comes to issues like my own social security and future, I become one of the "base" real quick...though I do not support nor like Trump. Faith and them do have a point in that he is standing up to this whole globalization effort to bring the global population into a more equitable ratio...which we pure capitalists do not support. yes, Im all for bringing people up to a better standard of living but certainly not at my expense. I need (and deserve) every dollar I get.
    As long as the US continues to act like the stupid bullies we have been then yes, we will suffer.
    And I am essentially speaking for the middle class and warning the powers that be that if they screw too much with us, everyone will suffer. We dont like being used any more than the global masses liked it before.
    And going down swinging is just another example of utter stupidity.
    Perhaps, but do not underestimate the likelihood that it will happen. What else do you expect us to do? Turn the other cheek and pay the bill out of honor while we grow closer to poverty? No, this bill will get paid by everyone or no one.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
    "~Thugpreacha
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
    ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
    "You may not like it, but the dog bites both ankles."~Tangle

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 68 by jar, posted 01-11-2020 7:16 AM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 75 by jar, posted 01-11-2020 7:27 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 78 of 133 (870088)
    01-12-2020 2:43 AM
    Reply to: Message 75 by jar
    01-11-2020 7:27 PM


    Re: Why The base Middle (Working) Class Might Be Annoyed By Globalism.
    And just how do you imagine we can force anyone else to pay.
    Well, how could they make us pay?

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
    "~Thugpreacha
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
    ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
    "You may not like it, but the dog bites both ankles."~Tangle

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 75 by jar, posted 01-11-2020 7:27 PM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 84 by jar, posted 01-12-2020 8:14 AM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 87 of 133 (870123)
    01-12-2020 3:30 PM
    Reply to: Message 84 by jar
    01-12-2020 8:14 AM


    Re: Why The base Middle (Working) Class Might Be Annoyed By Globalism.
    jar writes:
    You will most likely pay through pain and suffering.
    OK. You once stated that we are the sum of our experiences.
    Think about it. My parents both grew up poor in the thirties. Dad went through WW II fighting Japan. All of the troops came home and our country enjoyed the aberration that you and I have discussed before...that period after WWII caused by the temporary ramped u industrial capacity of our nation. My sister and I came along, she in 1950 and I in 1959. Despite limited education, my parents both worked hard and became solidly upper-middle-class through blood, toil, tears, and sweat. My life was one of limited though addictive entitlement. Though never wealthy, my family provided an oasis that I grew up in, promising unlimited opportunity constrained only by the limits of my ambition.
    This is essentially the blueprint for the entire generation which I grew up in. Now represented by a shrinking middle class competing with the poorer kids who tried harder and went to college and pushed their opportunities to the limit, we faced a domestic competition that soon grew global.
    Is it fair? In my mind, no. I was promised an opportunity which then was takn from us. Essentially, this is what led to the formation of Donald Trumps infamous base. We are a country without a solid leader. We are a demographic with a diminished future. We are competing against a global population far hungrier than we ever were. And we want justice for what we had to be restored to us.
    Jesus keeps us from being as evil as we could be. The fact is, people everywhere feel they "deserve" what I had. Whether or not they actually do, it is a wargame of major consequence.
    You may simply think we will roll over and pay the bill--a bill we had no conception of, and a bill that was sold to us by adventuresome neocons who used the system to steal our money and allowed the rest of the world to gain on us. Why do you think we despise the liberals? They could care less about entitlement. What they seek is a Utopian world of equality and fairness. They know no allegiance to any nation or people. They are globalists.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
    "~Thugpreacha
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
    ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
    "You may not like it, but the dog bites both ankles."~Tangle

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 84 by jar, posted 01-12-2020 8:14 AM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 90 by jar, posted 01-12-2020 4:15 PM Phat has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 88 of 133 (870124)
    01-12-2020 3:39 PM
    Reply to: Message 86 by ringo
    01-12-2020 1:25 PM


    Re: Why the Islamic world might be annoyed by the West?.
    ringo writes:
    If we figure out WHY Charles Manson did what he did, does that justify what he did?
    No. But there are a lot of villains and a lot of victims. One should not have to be responsible for what one does not fully understand or create. Trump's base touches the fabric of the whole concept of a land of opportunity. Why the globalists had to come along and provide the secret to the whole world exposes capitalisms soft underbelly. You claim that socialism is the answer and indeed it may well eventually be. Perhaps if you can convince us to stop fighting the planet over what we lost, we might make some progress. But being broke is NOT an option. And as long as we can elect people with their hands on the button, we will have a say in global politics unless the world unites and takes us out.
    Regarding Trump himself, I never saw an appeal. He is only out for himself. Perhaps that is the overall problem with all of us. We have enough problems getting our way at home without having to compete with a rising class of people from all over the world who want their piece of our pie! (Or what we thought was our pie)
    You and I always argue about why *we* don't do what Jesus advocated. The fact is, only a very small minority of Christians will ever have the guts to do that. Christian Nationalism is a myth. Take away the money and you will see these people exposed for what they really are. Maybe Trump instinctively knows that. Maybe he is fighting to keep the dream alive another decade before it implodes for good, taking the world through a crisis with it.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
    "~Thugpreacha
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
    ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
    "You may not like it, but the dog bites both ankles."~Tangle

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 86 by ringo, posted 01-12-2020 1:25 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 91 by ringo, posted 01-13-2020 10:48 AM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 89 of 133 (870125)
    01-12-2020 3:43 PM
    Reply to: Message 85 by Theodoric
    01-12-2020 9:19 AM


    Re: Why the Islamic world might be annoyed by the West?.
    I watched part of that. Pure evil. Is it my fault though for growing up with white privilege? I didn't ask for it. And had the question been posed on a ballot, I never would have voted to exploit Puerto Rico or anyone else. I just wanted what my parents worked for to be passed on down to me.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
    "~Thugpreacha
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
    ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
    "You may not like it, but the dog bites both ankles."~Tangle

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 85 by Theodoric, posted 01-12-2020 9:19 AM Theodoric has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 92 of 133 (870325)
    01-17-2020 1:31 AM
    Reply to: Message 91 by ringo
    01-13-2020 10:48 AM


    The Whole White Privilege Argument Is Tired.
    ringo writes:
    So ignorance is an excuse?
    How could I be expected to be responsible for what my ancestors *may* have done? I agree with the "white privilege" advocates that there was in fact an artificial construct and an invisible advantage to being white due to our ancestors. I am also aware that the US continues this in some measure today and that part we all are responsible for. But the whole idea of reparations is impractical and counterproductive. Should any bills come due, the entire planet will either pay them off together or the bills will be forgotten. I once had a bankruptcy and there was no practical way to ever pay off those debts in an entire lifetime. Forgiving the debts allowed me to make a new start in life and I am now able to work, live, and survive due to that action. I feel that the US should be extended the same courtesy by the global community. Or is that what you were even referring to by "ignorance"? Heck, the average citizen has no idea what the government does with the money.
    But we are a social species and we do depend on socialism a lot more than some people are willing to admit.
    That's what I mean. We are all in this together. Remember what happened when the allies tried to gang up on Germany to pay the bill after WW I? It failed. Lesson learned.
    Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    ~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
    "~Thugpreacha
    You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
    ? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
    "You may not like it, but the dog bites both ankles."~Tangle

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 91 by ringo, posted 01-13-2020 10:48 AM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 93 by ringo, posted 01-17-2020 7:16 PM Phat has replied

      
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