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Author Topic:   Iraq needed Saddam?
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 91 of 133 (870159)
01-13-2020 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 88 by Phat
01-12-2020 3:39 PM


Re: Why the Islamic world might be annoyed by the West?.
Phat writes:
One should not have to be responsible for what one does not fully understand or create.
So ignorance is an excuse? "But officer, I didn't know the car couldn't drive itself while I was texting."
Phat writes:
You claim that socialism is the answer...
No, I don't claim that anything is "the answer". I don't believe that there is a magical "the answer". That idea is pushed by opportunists like Trump for their own benefit.
But we are a social species and we do depend on socialism a lot more than some people are willing to admit.
Phat writes:
But being broke is NOT an option.
You're almost right there. Nobody decides to go broke. But it often does happen inevitably as a consequence of our actions.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Phat, posted 01-12-2020 3:39 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by Phat, posted 01-17-2020 1:31 AM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 92 of 133 (870325)
01-17-2020 1:31 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by ringo
01-13-2020 10:48 AM


The Whole White Privilege Argument Is Tired.
ringo writes:
So ignorance is an excuse?
How could I be expected to be responsible for what my ancestors *may* have done? I agree with the "white privilege" advocates that there was in fact an artificial construct and an invisible advantage to being white due to our ancestors. I am also aware that the US continues this in some measure today and that part we all are responsible for. But the whole idea of reparations is impractical and counterproductive. Should any bills come due, the entire planet will either pay them off together or the bills will be forgotten. I once had a bankruptcy and there was no practical way to ever pay off those debts in an entire lifetime. Forgiving the debts allowed me to make a new start in life and I am now able to work, live, and survive due to that action. I feel that the US should be extended the same courtesy by the global community. Or is that what you were even referring to by "ignorance"? Heck, the average citizen has no idea what the government does with the money.
But we are a social species and we do depend on socialism a lot more than some people are willing to admit.
That's what I mean. We are all in this together. Remember what happened when the allies tried to gang up on Germany to pay the bill after WW I? It failed. Lesson learned.
Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
"You may not like it, but the dog bites both ankles."~Tangle

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by ringo, posted 01-13-2020 10:48 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by ringo, posted 01-17-2020 7:16 PM Phat has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(4)
Message 93 of 133 (870358)
01-17-2020 7:16 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by Phat
01-17-2020 1:31 AM


Re: The Whole White Privilege Argument Is Tired.
Phat writes:
We are all in this together.
That's what I keep saying - from each according to his ability to each according to his need. Everybody should pay what he can. But you and Trump don't want your precious privilege touched. You wan't to pay the same as the starving children in Africa and keep your collection of ivory backscratchers for your retirement.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Phat, posted 01-17-2020 1:31 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by Phat, posted 01-18-2020 2:40 AM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 94 of 133 (870360)
01-18-2020 2:40 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by ringo
01-17-2020 7:16 PM


Re: The Whole White Privilege Argument Is Tired.
That's a crock---putting me in Trump's category! First of all, I don't make enough to save any money apart from maybe $100.00 a month. Second, apart from now being blind in one eye, I have sleep apnea, type 2 diabetes, and am 60 years old and getting worse. Perhaps I am better off financially than your poster child in Africa, but I doubt if I am any stronger. What gets me about you and jars attitudes is the fact that you think the whole world needs help except us old-timers here in America. You are counting on Canada's social largesse to help you, and jar has been a conservative who socked away enough money to get him by in his golden years. That's about all I can surmise. Apparently, you think I am busy scratching my back with ivory jacked off of poached elephants!

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
"You may not like it, but the dog bites both ankles."~Tangle

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by ringo, posted 01-17-2020 7:16 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by jar, posted 01-18-2020 8:25 AM Phat has replied
 Message 102 by ringo, posted 01-19-2020 1:15 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 95 of 133 (870366)
01-18-2020 8:25 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by Phat
01-18-2020 2:40 AM


Re: The Whole White Privilege Argument Is Tired.
Phat writes:
What gets me about you and jars attitudes is the fact that you think the whole world needs help except us old-timers here in America. You are counting on Canada's social largesse to help you, and jar has been a conservative who socked away enough money to get him by in his golden years.
Once again, you really need to stop posting absolutely false nonsense.
Neither ringo or I have said that those in the US who need help should not get help. In fact we have said that we should do far more to protect Americans and that the problem stopping that is the tendency of US Voting Citizens to elect politicians that work to keep those who need help from getting help.
But none of this has anything to do with the topic.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Phat, posted 01-18-2020 2:40 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by Phat, posted 01-18-2020 10:22 AM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 96 of 133 (870371)
01-18-2020 10:22 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by jar
01-18-2020 8:25 AM


YOU FINALLY GOT TO ME
After a restless night's sleep where my mind was churning incessantly, I was given a new perspective on a lot of the issues which I have made personal throughout the past week. This in no way means that I agree with you, but let's just say that your counter-perspective has gotten to my thinking. It started last night at around midnite as I was leaving work. We had dealt with a couple of unrepentant shoplifters, and as I got in my car, I found myself ranting aloud about them.
The conversation then morphed into an actual argument that I found myself having with God. (Note that I was, in fact, talking to myself. The criticism was not directed at me, however. It was directed at the One in charge of all seen and unseen.)
I found myself ranting at God the whole drive home. I actually believed I was talking to Him, though another part of me knew that I chose to make the scenario up. Whether He actually heard me or not is entirely up to Him. Basically, these shoplifters steal a lot ($2,000.00 daily) from our store, and I see it in terms of stealing from me. And if not just me, then society (honest society) in general. And it makes me rant!! Its really not fair at all, and I imagine the justification that these audacious people have for stealing. To earn a living? To buy drugs? Or to feed their poor impoverished family? (I highly doubt it in most cases) My point? Its not fair and if God Himself approves of this, I indict Him too!!
I thought of the owner of the vineyard hiring workers and paying the slackers the same as He paid the hard workers.
And then it hit me. I was setting God up as a strawman atonement for what bothers me and then knocking Him down! I was doing exactly what jar says we all do. It got me to thinking, that's for sure.
But getting back to what Iraq needs....what is it the rest of the developing world needs? And is it normal for the United States to view them as dangerous competitors?
Do they steal from the US? Is competition a form of stealing?
Edited by Thugpreacha, : eliminated my video.

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.lvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by jar, posted 01-18-2020 8:25 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by jar, posted 01-18-2020 11:03 AM Phat has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 97 of 133 (870379)
01-18-2020 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by Phat
01-18-2020 10:22 AM


Re: YOU FINALLY GOT TO ME
Phat writes:
But getting back to what Iraq needs....what is it the rest of the developing world needs? And is it normal for the United States to view them as dengerous competitors?
Do they steal from the US? Is competition a form of stealing?
If a Starbucks opens in Damascus and is patronized by thousands of Iraqi's daily is it stealing from you?
If we buy Iraqi oil instead of paying troops to guard the wells are they stealing from you?
Which was most beneficial to the US, Japan as an enemy or Japan as an economic competitor?
Which was most beneficial to the US, Germany as an enemy or Germany as an economic competitor?
Which was most beneficial to the US, China as an enemy or China as an economic competitor?
You can continue the list if you want.
Many folk worry about the immigrants at our southern border. But why are they headed this way? What part did we play in creating the conditions that are driving them north? What could we do to ameliorate those conditions?
Can you see a pattern developing?

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Phat, posted 01-18-2020 10:22 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by Phat, posted 01-18-2020 12:30 PM jar has replied
 Message 99 by Phat, posted 01-18-2020 1:11 PM jar has not replied
 Message 104 by Phat, posted 01-19-2020 3:33 PM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 98 of 133 (870383)
01-18-2020 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by jar
01-18-2020 11:03 AM


Re: YOU FINALLY GOT TO ME
Can you see a pattern developing?
Not quite. I guess I'm still thinking about myself. So let me ask you this question.
When the shoplifters steal $2,000.00 a day from my employer, I see them as essentially stealing from me. Is that part of the pattern? After all, they are not competitors in the traditional sense and yet they are.
And if Iraq sells its oil to China instead of the US, is it because of our price offer or is it because of our politics?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
"You may not like it, but the dog bites both ankles."~Tangle

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by jar, posted 01-18-2020 11:03 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by jar, posted 01-18-2020 1:16 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 99 of 133 (870387)
01-18-2020 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by jar
01-18-2020 11:03 AM


MacArthurs Occupation of Japan seen in light of Iraq
So what did MacArthur do successfully that we failed to do with Iraq?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
"You may not like it, but the dog bites both ankles."~Tangle

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by jar, posted 01-18-2020 11:03 AM jar has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 100 of 133 (870389)
01-18-2020 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by Phat
01-18-2020 12:30 PM


Re: YOU FINALLY GOT TO ME
Phat writes:
When the shoplifters steal $2,000.00 a day from my employer, I see them as essentially stealing from me. Is that part of the pattern?
Likely.
Phat writes:
And if Iraq sells its oil to China instead of the US, is it because of our price offer or is it because of our politics?
Good start. What does the evidence show? How are oil prices set?
But go further. Look at Iraq. What is Iraq and how did it come into existence? Almost all problems are political and so what political issues are unique to Iraq?
What happened to Czechoslovakia? Why did it happen? How is Czechoslovakia similar to Iraq?

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Phat, posted 01-18-2020 12:30 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by dwise1, posted 01-18-2020 3:36 PM jar has not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 101 of 133 (870396)
01-18-2020 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by jar
01-18-2020 1:16 PM


Re: YOU FINALLY GOT TO ME
What happened to Czechoslovakia? Why did it happen? How is Czechoslovakia similar to Iraq?
And what about Yugoslavia and the way that it fell apart so horrifically badly (eg, outright genocide) after strong-man Tito died?
And thinking it over this past year, I'm seeing Hitler's (not invoking Godwin's Law here) goal of "gathering in the Germans" as not really being so much a land-grab but rather a justifiable (in their eyes) reclamation of German territory that had been taken away from them without their consent less than two decades before (IOW, within the personal memory of most Germans alive then). Large parts of the German Empire in the east were taken to recreate Poland (also from Austria) and Czechoslovakia (the Sudetenland), both in 1918. That left many ethnic Germans as minorities in those new countries, which gave Hitler an excuse and a propaganda opportunity that he made full use of. Saddam Hussein used the same excuse to "return Kuwait to Iraq". When the Soviets gave the eastern part of Germany to Poland (so that they could keep the eastern part of Poland that they had conquered) in the late 40's, they made sure not to make the same mistake by expelling all Germans from the newly Polish territory, created a flood of displaced persons into Germany (a theme used in a number of German films, such as Das Schreckliche Mdchen ("The Nasty Girl")).
Amazing how the arbitrary redrawing of the world's maps by France and England a century ago can have caused and still be causing us so many problems.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by jar, posted 01-18-2020 1:16 PM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by ringo, posted 01-19-2020 1:25 PM dwise1 has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 102 of 133 (870430)
01-19-2020 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by Phat
01-18-2020 2:40 AM


Re: The Whole White Privilege Argument Is Tired.
Phat writes:
That's a crock---putting me in Trump's category!
At least you still have the decency to object.
But every topic doesn't have to be about you. I was referring, maybe too subtly, to Trumps constant whining about the other nations not paying their share toward NATO, the UN, etc. That's a Trumpian attitude that Americans don't criticize enough. You helped create the America that you live in.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Phat, posted 01-18-2020 2:40 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 103 of 133 (870432)
01-19-2020 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by dwise1
01-18-2020 3:36 PM


Re: YOU FINALLY GOT TO ME
dwise1 writes:
Amazing how the arbitrary redrawing of the world's maps by France and England a century ago can have caused and still be causing us so many problems.
Not to mention Africa - drawing the lines to divide up the resources, without regard to ethnicities.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by dwise1, posted 01-18-2020 3:36 PM dwise1 has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 104 of 133 (870437)
01-19-2020 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by jar
01-18-2020 11:03 AM


Enemies vs Competitors
There is a deeper element in play here that I think was missing from Japan after WWII. And I could be incorrect in my assessment..but
Japan copied our model. Iran, Iraq, and many of the Islamic nations want nothing to do with copying. They don't want to be Avis. They want their own culture and their own Starbucks, (named Crescent Moonbucks) and they would prefer not to sell oil to the Great Satan. Sometimes I think that the West has created its own global restraining order. In the past, nations had little choice but to listen to us and do it our way. Were there no Marshall Plan, there was not a Deng Xiaoping Plan waiting on the sidelines. Now there is. I think that the United States may even go so far as to fuel wars and dissent chiefly to attempt to sell our protection along with the business deals---and that our time is coming to an end. This worries me.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
"You may not like it, but the dog bites both ankles."~Tangle

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by jar, posted 01-18-2020 11:03 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by jar, posted 01-19-2020 3:43 PM Phat has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 105 of 133 (870438)
01-19-2020 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by Phat
01-19-2020 3:33 PM


Re: Enemies vs Competitors
Phat writes:
Iran, Iraq, and many of the Islamic nations want nothing to do with copying.
Are you sure?
Can you even list the Islamic nations that we currently regularly do business with? In Message 73 there is a partial list. Look it over. If Iran and Iraq were actually given a chance to work with the rest of the world what do you think would happen? And Japan did not copy us, even today Japanese culture is far different than ours. Why would we even want any nation to copy us?
Phat writes:
I think that the United States may even go so far as to fuel wars and dissent chiefly to attempt to sell our protection along with the business deals---and that our time is coming to an end. This worries me.
Except Phat, we don't really sell protection, only the sizzle and not the steak. Ask the Kurds.
Trump has repeatedly questioned whether or not the US should provide aid much less protection. And Europe and Asia and the rest of the world have taken notice.
But you are still avoiding the issue in this topic.
What happened to Czechoslovakia? Why did it happen? How is Czechoslovakia similar to Iraq?
What happened to Yugoslavia? Why did it happen? How is Yugoslavia similar to Iraq?

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by Phat, posted 01-19-2020 3:33 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by Phat, posted 01-19-2020 4:01 PM jar has replied

  
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