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Author Topic:   Catholics are making it up.
ringo
Member (Idle past 434 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 344 of 507 (870197)
01-14-2020 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 342 by Faith
01-14-2020 11:28 AM


Re: It's ALL made up, both sides of the issue, forget what God has to say about it
Faith writes:
The RCC seems to have decreed that fish was not the meat their tradition forbade, who am I to argue?
It just goes to show that both you and the RCC can come to stupid conclusions if you start with stupid premises.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 342 by Faith, posted 01-14-2020 11:28 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 345 by Faith, posted 01-14-2020 11:46 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 434 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 346 of 507 (870199)
01-14-2020 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 345 by Faith
01-14-2020 11:46 AM


Re: It's ALL made up, both sides of the issue, forget what God has to say about it
Faith writes:
Forbidding meat is already wrong according to the Bible...
Forbidding meat was wrong at one time and eating meat was wrong at one time (according to you). The whole meat issue is ambiguous, which makes my point that "the Bible" is not monolithic.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 345 by Faith, posted 01-14-2020 11:46 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 347 by Faith, posted 01-14-2020 11:55 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 434 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 348 of 507 (870202)
01-14-2020 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 347 by Faith
01-14-2020 11:55 AM


Re: It's ALL made up, both sides of the issue, forget what God has to say about it
Faith writes:
Meat wasn't for us to eat until after the Flood, that's very clear according to the Bible but since then we are free to eat meat.
Why? Where's the logic in that? The dividing line for good/evil was at the supposed "Fall", not at the Flood.
Faith writes:
(I tend to think of this as related to the deterioration of the whole Creation after the Flood...
Which you made up.
Faith writes:
... the decrease in longevity for instance that had preceded it....
The supposed deterioration doesn't work as a reason for decreased longevity. Methuselah lived much longer than Adam.
Faith writes:
... even though plants and animals would also have suffered some loss that might reduce their nutritional value...
Which you made up.
Faith writes:
... meat would probably have offered more nutrition to hard-working humanity in the Food-devastated world).
As it would in the pre-Flood "Fallen" world.
Faith writes:
So AFTER THAT to forbid it is wrong according to the Bible. I don't see that we are REQUIRED to eat it, but forbidding it is clearly wrong.
Which doesn't make a lick of sense.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 347 by Faith, posted 01-14-2020 11:55 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 349 by Faith, posted 01-14-2020 12:32 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 434 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 352 of 507 (870217)
01-14-2020 7:06 PM
Reply to: Message 349 by Faith
01-14-2020 12:32 PM


Re: It's ALL made up, both sides of the issue, forget what God has to say about it
Faith writes:
The deterioration after the Flood ought to be obvious for pete's sake.
Not only is it not "obvious", it's contrary to the evidence.
Faith writes:
...after the Flood the whole environment changed for the worse.
That's both factually false and unscriptural.
Faith writes:
... the idea is that before the Flood there was adequate nutrition in plant life, but afterward with the deterioration of all forms of life more was needed.
That's also completely made up.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 349 by Faith, posted 01-14-2020 12:32 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 353 by Faith, posted 01-15-2020 12:51 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 434 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 374 of 507 (870357)
01-17-2020 7:04 PM
Reply to: Message 353 by Faith
01-15-2020 12:51 AM


Re: It's ALL made up, both sides of the issue, forget what God has to say about it
Faith writes:
I gave evidence for my side, where's yours?
The evidence shows that there has been no "deterioration" in genomes, etc. sice the Flood (which didn't happen, according to the evidence).
Faith writes:
Scripturally, after the Fall thorns and thistles came up and growing food became difficult, so much more so one would expect would there be such problems after the Flood wiped out the whole early environment.
But it is not scriptural in that scripture says no such thing. It may or may not be a reasonable inference but it is not scriptural.
Faith writes:
For it to be "unscriptural" you'd have to show that scripture says the environment changed for the better.
No, I just have to point out that scripture doesn't say it - you're making it up.
Faith writes:
No, it's an inference based on Biblical references plus common sense. Such thinking is not "made up."
It certainly is made up. That's what made up means. Unfortunately you have an unrealistically low opinion of fiction; you dismiss anything made up as bad, so you can't admit that any of your beliefs are made up.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 353 by Faith, posted 01-15-2020 12:51 AM Faith has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 434 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 380 of 507 (870518)
01-21-2020 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 379 by Phat
01-20-2020 1:18 PM


Re: Clarion call
Phat writes:
When economic times get tough, the ranks of the religious increase.
Is that true?

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 379 by Phat, posted 01-20-2020 1:18 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 381 by Phat, posted 01-21-2020 3:54 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 434 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 382 of 507 (870543)
01-21-2020 6:56 PM
Reply to: Message 381 by Phat
01-21-2020 3:54 PM


Re: Business Meetings After Mass
Phat writes:
Sure. It's even printed on our money. In God We Trust I suspect that what we really trust is the money itself.
Probably. So is it really true that in bad economic times people turn to gods?

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 381 by Phat, posted 01-21-2020 3:54 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 385 by Phat, posted 01-22-2020 9:44 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 434 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 387 of 507 (870599)
01-22-2020 2:14 PM
Reply to: Message 385 by Phat
01-22-2020 9:44 AM


Re: Business Meetings After Mass
Phat writes:
What I mean is that believers rely on their relationship with God and each other more when times are tough.
And I'm asking if that is true. I think in hard times some believers realize that God ain't gonna do it for them. A dose of reality often cures a bad case of fantasy.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 385 by Phat, posted 01-22-2020 9:44 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 389 by Phat, posted 01-22-2020 3:42 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 434 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 390 of 507 (870607)
01-22-2020 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 389 by Phat
01-22-2020 3:42 PM


Re: Business Meetings After Mass
Phat writes:
... if I believe that God is good and not simply complete....
Complete would be more than just good. You are limiting your made-up god.
Phat writes:
Miracles by definition are unexpected. There will never be a film crew at the scene or a scientist running tests.
That's a convenient definition, isn't it? Define it specifically so that it can never be tested. Why not use an honest definition instead?

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 389 by Phat, posted 01-22-2020 3:42 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 391 by Phat, posted 01-22-2020 4:35 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 434 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 392 of 507 (870620)
01-22-2020 4:56 PM
Reply to: Message 391 by Phat
01-22-2020 4:35 PM


Re: Dogmatic Prophecy
Phat writes:
I prefer assigning evil to what God is not.
That's contradicted by your own quote, Revelation 1:8, "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End," says the Lord, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." That doesn't include anything that God is not.
Phat writes:
Rather than having God be "complete" as in completly responsible for every stubbed toe, aborted baby, and war or storm, we find the dragon taking the hit.
Where does this dragon fit outside of alpha and omega?
Phat writes:
... this Beast character was, is not, and yet is....
That's a cute play on words but does it actually mean anything?
Phat writes:
You can laugh at the silly absurdity of the apologists....
Thanks. I will.
Phat writes:
And I know critics will say that this whole interpretation is negative and silly, but I encourage skeptics to keep it in mind as our planet becomes more crowded, wars happen due to competition over diminishing resources, and global warming takes its inevitable toll.
The consequences of overpopulation, etc. have nothing to do with that utterly stupid interpretation of the Revelation.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 391 by Phat, posted 01-22-2020 4:35 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 393 by Phat, posted 01-22-2020 5:07 PM ringo has replied
 Message 402 by Phat, posted 01-23-2020 8:04 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 434 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 394 of 507 (870624)
01-22-2020 5:20 PM
Reply to: Message 393 by Phat
01-22-2020 5:07 PM


Re: Dogmatic Prophecy
Phat writes:
So if we get involved in wars over diminishing resources....
Why would we do that? Wars don't gain resources any more. We're not a bunch of feudal fiefdoms exchanging farmland any more. Wars use up resources, waste resources.
Phat writes:
you guys have no faith in God and lots more faith in humanity (without God) than I do.
The evidence shows that everything that has ever been done for humanity has been done by humanity.
Phat writes:
Scoff much, ringo?
Note that the "last days" that Peter spoke of have been coming for more than two thousand years. So yes, I do scoff at people who take the idea of the "last days" seriously. Peter might as well have prophesied that, "People will laugh at knock-knock jokes."

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 393 by Phat, posted 01-22-2020 5:07 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 434 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 409 of 507 (870732)
01-24-2020 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 402 by Phat
01-23-2020 8:04 PM


Re: Dogmatic Prophecy
Phat writes:
That's my whole point--God is *not* evil.
And as I said, that contradicts your quote. The Revelation says that God is EVERYTHING. There is NOTHING that He is not.
Phat writes:
God is not a liar. God is not deceptive. These are the traits of Satan.
That's you diminishing God.
There is no separate Satan. Satan is an agent of God. Satan is a part of God.
Phat writes:
... the Beast is shown to be an *is not* as in is not God.
If that was true, it would be the Revelation contradicting itself. Your own quote says that nothing can be "not God".
Phat writes:
If humans choose to behave independently of God, they will find themselves not on the guest list since by default they followed the Beast rather than God.
Jesus Himself said who would be on the guest list - those who do things for others instead of depending on God to do it for them. If there is anything to that demented "Beast" story, the ones who "follow the Beast" are the ones who DO depend on God instead of doing it themselves.
Phat writes:
But if reality includes this whole paradigm you cant opt-out.
The paradigm you suggest isn't even self-consistent. Your reading of the Revelation contradicts itself and it contradicts Jesus.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 402 by Phat, posted 01-23-2020 8:04 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 410 by Phat, posted 01-24-2020 11:06 AM ringo has replied
 Message 414 by Phat, posted 01-24-2020 11:27 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 434 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 411 of 507 (870735)
01-24-2020 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 410 by Phat
01-24-2020 11:06 AM


Re: Dogmatic Prophecy
Phat writes:
I am the First and the Last does not equate to I AM Everything!
Yes it does. There are NO letters in the alphabet except those between Alpha and Omega. That is a very clear analogy. There is nothing before the Beginning and nothing after the End. that is a very clear analogy.
What on earth do you think those analogies mean if they are not all-inclusive?
Phat writes:
That's clear pantheism and we are talking monotheism.
It says what it says. If it means pantheism, that's your problem, not mine.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 410 by Phat, posted 01-24-2020 11:06 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 413 by Phat, posted 01-24-2020 9:35 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 434 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 415 of 507 (870830)
01-25-2020 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 413 by Phat
01-24-2020 9:35 PM


Re: Dogmatic Prophecy
Phat writes:
It means that God existed before our beginning as humans...and perhaps before time itself began to exist...which would imply before space existed as well.
That might work if the author hadn't also mentioned Alpha and Omega. The complete alphabet has nothing to do with time. The context implies a more general completeness.
Phat writes:
There is a distinct difference between describing a physical universe, for example, that includes within itself everything and everyone and a Deity Who created everything and everyone.
There's no difference in the completeness.
Phat writes:
The very phrase "I Am" sums up the source of the voice that John heard.
The source of the voice is not in question here. The nature of the source is in question. Is it a complete God (Alpha and Omega) or a puny half-god like you portray?
Phat writes:
Rev 1:18 writes:
"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End," says the Lord, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."
So what on earth can you even suggest regarding all-inclusiveness?
Alpha and Omega includes the whole alphabet. All of it.
Phat writes:
Panthesism would suggest that the universe itself was God... But it is not possessive of a voice.
Why not?
Phat writes:
John was clearly "in the spirit"...he was not hallucinating on magic mushrooms.
That's far from clear. Something akin to magic mushrooms seems pretty likely.
Phat writes:
It makes more sense to imply a Creator/creation relationship rather than a whole of whom we (and Satan) are but parts of.
How does it "make more sense". Show us the sense.
Phat writes:
If you see otherwise, thats only your stubborn propensity to argue about anything and everything and is not my fault.
That's only your stubborn propensity to swallow everything the apologists say without actually reading the Bible and thinking it through for yourself. That propensity weakens your qualification to declare what "makes more sense".
Phat writes:
At best you have proven that your thinking is all inclusive of any point not made by your opponent!
I'm not trying to prove anything (about a God who doesn't exist). I'm just pointing out what the Bible says.
Phat writes:
What do you think? That the narrative was written by someone else using john as a plot device?
That's entirely possible. Do you think Jim Hawkins was a real person? Or that the story he told was true?
Phat writes:
We now see that God and jesus both are described as the first and the last. We know this last verse speaks of jesus rather than God the father because....
That doesn't work if Jesus is God.
Phat writes:
... the very fact that there were churches suggests that people were prompted to create them for some reason.
Yes and there must have been "some reason" for creating the Mormon Church, the Church of Scientology, the Raelian Church.... "Some reason" for doing it is does not mean that the thinking behind the church has any merit.
Phat writes:
A Death, Burial, and Resurrection would suffice.
A story about a death, burial and resurrection would suffice. Just like a story about angels writing on golden tablets would suffice. This has been pointed out to you many times before. The story does not have to be true.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 413 by Phat, posted 01-24-2020 9:35 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 434 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 416 of 507 (870832)
01-25-2020 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 414 by Phat
01-24-2020 11:27 PM


Re: Dogmatic Prophecy
Phat writes:
There are many scriptures that suggest that following God is the way to go.
I didn't say that following God is evil. I said that the way to follow God is not by bleating, "Lord! Lord!" and expecting Him to do everything for you. It's by doing unto the least of these.
Phat writes:
There is no such thing as doing anything yourself
Of course there is. Don't be silly.
Phat writes:
You want to do everything yourself.
I have to do everything for myself.
Phat writes:
Even if God existed you likely would close the door on Him.
Stop it. You're just trying to rationalize your own silly beliefs.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 414 by Phat, posted 01-24-2020 11:27 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
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