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Author Topic:   Catholics are making it up.
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 379 of 507 (870471)
01-20-2020 1:18 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Tangle
09-10-2015 4:26 AM


Re: Clarion call
Tangle writes:
Atheists have a large angry dog in this fight.
There are several angry dogs. Christian nationalism has one. Islam has at least one. Populists have one. And as for the Catholic Church, they would do well to admit their sins and move on as long as every hurt Catholic in the world doesn't try and sue them for their last billions.
Religions like to think that they are the arbiters of morality and try to plant their daft and dangerous ideas everywhere in society from schools to parliamentary lawmaking. It's good news that they're dumping some of their dogma and becoming more civilized but they need a boot along the way from people who have no fear of them.
When economic times get tough, the ranks of the religious increase. A vocal minority of angry atheists can't legislate morality any more than the church can. When all your money is riding on God, you don't fold your cards easily.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"We, humans, are engaged in an ongoing war of ideologies. I see it in this microcosm of EvC Forum just as I see it in the governments and attitudes of people throughout the world. Take your pick: Oppression or Seduction .
"~Thugpreacha
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith
"You may not like it, but the dog bites both ankles."~Tangle

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Tangle, posted 09-10-2015 4:26 AM Tangle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 380 by ringo, posted 01-21-2020 11:07 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 381 of 507 (870527)
01-21-2020 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 380 by ringo
01-21-2020 11:07 AM


Business Meetings After Mass
Sure. It's even printed on our money. In God We Trust I suspect that what we really trust is the money itself. I recall my own Father having talks with other parishioners after service and the discussion always seemed to be about business, future plans, and boasting about new cars. In their mind, God's blessing always translated into material prosperity. Until he(Dad) became sick with cancer. He stayed away from the church then. He told us he didn't want a bunch of people feeling sorry for him.
Religion may well be made up, but the people who value it would sooner make it it up rather than reject it.
Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.lvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott

This message is a reply to:
 Message 380 by ringo, posted 01-21-2020 11:07 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 382 by ringo, posted 01-21-2020 6:56 PM Phat has replied
 Message 383 by Tangle, posted 01-22-2020 3:01 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 384 of 507 (870558)
01-22-2020 9:40 AM
Reply to: Message 383 by Tangle
01-22-2020 3:01 AM


Re: Business Meetings After Mass
The reason that I cling on to the belief is because of undeniable experiences that I had that point to God's existence.
It may have been easy for you to throw that away, but not so for me. I have nothing else at age 60. Im too old to hustle harder. Im too cynical to accept the world as it is being as good as it will ever get. I do not want to be a persistant pessimist (like Marvin the Android) but I see wars, ethnic and racial conflicts, and bumpy roads ahead as a global population encounters raw climate change.
Just because a person (or a people) believes in God does not mean we roll over andf go back to sleep expecting Him to fix everything. I am well aware of the challenges facing humanity, but throwing God and religion away wont fix any of them.(either)

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.lvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott

This message is a reply to:
 Message 383 by Tangle, posted 01-22-2020 3:01 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 386 by Tangle, posted 01-22-2020 10:25 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 385 of 507 (870559)
01-22-2020 9:44 AM
Reply to: Message 382 by ringo
01-21-2020 6:56 PM


Re: Business Meetings After Mass
ringo writes:
So is it really true that in bad economic times people turn to gods?
I keep forgetting that you include atheists. What I mean is that believers rely on their relationship with God and each other more when times are tough. When times are prosperous, we tend to worship a God of our own imagination Who blesses each and every business deal and Who wants not only to make America Great Again but Who sees material prosperity as a legacy for our children---indeed a birthright.
So to answer your question, yes and no.

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.lvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott

This message is a reply to:
 Message 382 by ringo, posted 01-21-2020 6:56 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 387 by ringo, posted 01-22-2020 2:14 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 388 of 507 (870605)
01-22-2020 3:34 PM
Reply to: Message 386 by Tangle
01-22-2020 10:25 AM


All Religions Are Not The Same.
Tangle writes:
But it's not a fluke that your 'undeniable experience' was a Christian one in a Christian country nor that non-Christians in non-Christian countries that have never heard of Christianity ever get that experience.
Instead they get their own culture-related 'undeniable experience' - people in Islamic cultures get Muslim experiences. That really should tell you something. It's a powerful, cultural and need-related delusion. It's not real and I suspect you know it.
This was worth a google. So I found this:
Do Miracles Happen in Non-Christian Religions?
First off, no, I do not know this. The word delusions is not part of my description of what unexplained events I have seen. They were very real to me and to two others present, and to this day we would all be able to relate the same story without collusion or deception. It was etched into our memories. This article does have a couple of points, however.
  • quote:
    Consider, for example, the teachings of Siddhartha Buddha. He was agnostic (at best) about the existence of a personal and all-powerful God. Furthermore, he discouraged the working of marvels (e.g., magic) because the desire for power or influence would be a hindrance to enlightenment. Long after Buddha’s lifetime, however, stories of his great powers began to emerge. Although later Buddhist teaching allowed for a variety of doctrinal views, original teachings by the Buddha seemed to exclude or at least provide little basis for miracle-working and would be reason to give critics pause.
    So of course miricles happen sporadically in other religions. What you fail to understand is that all religions are not simply relative to the culture. God stepped out of eternity into time on this planet and happened to speak to the people whom He did for a reason. You guys claim it is all made up, but I fail to find sufficient proof for your claim.
  • quote:
    For every miracle claim, possible supernatural and natural causes should be considered. A miracle is an act of God in history for which no natural explanation is adequate. Thus we should start by asking whether any adequate natural explanations may be given.
    Logical enough. I would guess that out of 1000 miracles reported, perhaps 10% are genuine.

    The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.lvin Coolidge
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
    Anne Lamott

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 386 by Tangle, posted 01-22-2020 10:25 AM Tangle has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 396 by Tangle, posted 01-22-2020 6:24 PM Phat has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 389 of 507 (870606)
    01-22-2020 3:42 PM
    Reply to: Message 387 by ringo
    01-22-2020 2:14 PM


    Re: Business Meetings After Mass
    ringo writes:
    I think in hard times some believers realize that God ain't gonna do it for them.
    I believe that God works in mysterious ways.(Cliche, I know! ) God has used the arguments here at EvC to make me realize that God won't simply carry me through life...I am charged to do my best and to follow the message and to have a mind open to logic, reason, and reality. At the same time, this only makes God more real to me than before. As I heal from my compulsive gambling, I realize that God does not owe me anything (Though I still get very mad at thieves...what they do is take rather than expect.) A miracle is always possible, and if I believe that God is good and not simply complete, I also believe that God is capable of a miracle at any time.
    Catholic Answers writes:
    Another possibility may be that out of his goodwill God may work a miracle in response to the personal prayer of a non-Christian. Such an act of providence would obviously be one small part of a larger plan to bring the person to believe in the one true God. God, after all, desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth (1 Tim. 2:4).
    Tangle and you often claim that one reason you are no longer believers is that you see no evidence of God or anything He might do.
    Miracles by definition are unexpected. There will never be a film crew at the scene or a scientist running tests.
    Edited by Thugpreacha, : spellcheck

    The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.lvin Coolidge
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
    Anne Lamott

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 387 by ringo, posted 01-22-2020 2:14 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 390 by ringo, posted 01-22-2020 3:51 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 391 of 507 (870614)
    01-22-2020 4:35 PM
    Reply to: Message 390 by ringo
    01-22-2020 3:51 PM


    Dogmatic Prophecy
    ringo writes:
    Complete would be more than just good. You are limiting your made-up god.
    I prefer assigning evil to what God is not. I believe that God is never evil.
    Rev 1:8NKJV writes:
    "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End," says the Lord, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."
    Pretty simple. Always was and is and always will be. That's the God you claim I "made up".
    Now for the evil part:
    Rather than having God be "complete" as in completly responsible for every stubbed toe, aborted baby, and war or storm, we find the dragon taking the hit. Whether this Dragon was our snake in Genesis is debateable...though the apologists certainly believe it.
    But wait, there's more:
    Rev 17:8 writes:
    The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
    Note that Jesus was, is and forever shall be while this Beast character was, is not, and yet is (for those who miss the boat)
    Rev 13:1-4 writes:
    Then I stood on the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast rising up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and on his horns ten crowns, and on his heads a blasphemous name. 2 Now the beast which I saw was like a leopard, his feet were like the feet of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. The dragon gave him his power, his throne, and great authority. 3 And I saw one of his heads as if it had been mortally wounded, and his deadly wound was healed. And all the world marveled and followed the beast. 4 So they worshiped the dragon who gave authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, "Who is like the beast? Who is able to make war with him?"
    Looks like the Dragon gave authority to the beast.
    Rev 18:1-11 writes:
    After these things I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth was illuminated with his glory. 2 And he cried mightily with a loud voice, saying, "Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and has become a dwelling place of demons, a prison for every foul spirit, and a cage for every unclean and hated bird! 3 For all the nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth have become rich through the abundance of her luxury."
    4 And I heard another voice from heaven saying,"Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues. 5 For her sins have reached to heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities. 6 Render to her just as she rendered to you, and repay her double according to her works; in the cup which she has mixed, mix double for her. 7 In the measure that she glorified herself and lived luxuriously, in the same measure give her torment and sorrow; for she says in her heart, 'I sit as queen, and am no widow, and will not see sorrow.' 8 Therefore her plagues will come in one day -- death and mourning and famine. And she will be utterly burned with fire, for strong is the Lord God who judges her.
    "The kings of the earth who committed fornication and lived luxuriously with her will weep and lament for her, when they see the smoke of her burning, 10 standing at a distance for fear of her torment, saying,'Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! For in one hour your judgment has come.'
    11 "And the merchants of the earth will weep and mourn over her, for no one buys their merchandise anymore:
    You can laugh at the silly absurdity of the apologists, but there is some agreement that the United States is, in fact, Babylon The Great. Hopefully not, for I certainly don't want to be judged that harshly for my entitled arrogance!
    And I know critics will say that this whole interpretation is negative and silly, but I encourage skeptics to keep it in mind as our planet becomes more crowded, wars happen due to competition over diminishing resources, and global warming takes its inevitable toll.

    The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.lvin Coolidge
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
    Anne Lamott

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 390 by ringo, posted 01-22-2020 3:51 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 392 by ringo, posted 01-22-2020 4:56 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 393 of 507 (870622)
    01-22-2020 5:07 PM
    Reply to: Message 392 by ringo
    01-22-2020 4:56 PM


    Re: Dogmatic Prophecy
    jar writes:
    t's possible to learn from the content of all scripture and the purpose of all scripture is to market the position favored by the author.
    The reader's task is to test the content against reason, logic and reality.
    What does logic say will happen given the history of human nature and war? The planet clearly will become unsustainable for everyone. Some will have to go.
    ringo writes:
    The only Satan is us - but us including Iran of course.
    So if we get involved in wars over diminishing resources as global warming rises, according to experts, to the water level of the statue of liberty's elbow and noting that most great cities are near sea level, what would logic suggest that humans will do...nevermind what they must do.
    you guys have no faith in God and lots more faith in humanity (without God) than I do.
    ringo writes:
    The consequences of overpopulation, etc. have nothing to do with that utterly stupid interpretation of the Revelation.
    2 Peter 3:1-4 writes:
    Beloved, I now write to you this second epistle (in both of which I stir up your pure minds by way of reminder), 2 that you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us, the apostles of the Lord and Savior, 3 knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, 4 and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation."
    Scoff much, ringo?

    The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.lvin Coolidge
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
    Anne Lamott

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 392 by ringo, posted 01-22-2020 4:56 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 394 by ringo, posted 01-22-2020 5:20 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 395 by jar, posted 01-22-2020 5:30 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 400 of 507 (870698)
    01-23-2020 7:36 PM
    Reply to: Message 395 by jar
    01-22-2020 5:30 PM


    Re: Dogmatic Prophecy
    jar writes:
    Where is the evidence of any god ever doing anything?
    I'm still having trouble understanding your definitions. They obviously conflict with what i was taught and more importantly what I believe using my own reasoning. From what I gather, your whole definition of a believer is along with a consensus between belief and logic, reason, and reality. You never seem to rely on God to do anything so what's the whole point of a belief, anyway?
    You may respond by asking me to stop. Full stop. And examine the whole history of the religion in light of what evidence we do know.
    Is there evidence of humans doing things?
    Irrelevant. Of course humans do things. We could argue that they do everything of any significance involving claims of Christ's living interaction with humanity. There is no evidence for that, apart from subjective claims. (Which I would argue are huge) I don't buy the idea of rejecting God's influence nor of throwing Him away in any way shape or form. To do that would invalidate my claim of being a believer since my definition of being a believer involves believing in His influence. It does little good believing in an aloof God.
    It seems your emphasis in your definition of being a believer is that you, along with other humans, belong to this club and that the club motto is to do what the club figurehead once wrote about doing. In this context, it is irrelevant if the club figurehead(Jesus Christ) still lives, ever lived, ever was God, or communes with humanity at all.

    The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.lvin Coolidge
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
    Anne Lamott

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 395 by jar, posted 01-22-2020 5:30 PM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 403 by jar, posted 01-23-2020 8:08 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 401 of 507 (870700)
    01-23-2020 7:39 PM
    Reply to: Message 399 by GDR
    01-23-2020 6:23 PM


    Re: All religions are of human origin.
    GDR writes:
    Those books are evidence, as is the fact that the first followers of Jesus clearly believed that Jesus had been resurrected. I am not saying that the evidence is conclusive. We have come to different conclusions about whether or not the resurrection was a historical event.
    I would argue that the only evidence we actually have is the behavior of humans in response to these writings. Atheists may well argue that they too can do civic duties with no religion needed.
    Our interaction with fellow believers carries more weight because of our shared belief, but this does not prevent us from interacting with any group of people doing Christ's work---either knowingly or unknowingly. Wouldnt you agree?

    The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.lvin Coolidge
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
    Anne Lamott

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 399 by GDR, posted 01-23-2020 6:23 PM GDR has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 407 by GDR, posted 01-24-2020 10:02 AM Phat has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 402 of 507 (870703)
    01-23-2020 8:04 PM
    Reply to: Message 392 by ringo
    01-22-2020 4:56 PM


    Re: Dogmatic Prophecy
    Phat writes:
    I prefer assigning evil to what God is not.
    That's contradicted by your own quote, Revelation 1:8, "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End," says the Lord, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." That doesn't include anything that God is not.
    Of course it doesn't. That's my whole point--God is *not* evil. God is not a liar. God is not deceptive. These are the traits of Satan. And even if you argue that Satan is merely the behavior of humans, the Beast is shown to be an *is not* as in is not God. If humans choose to behave independently of God, they will find themselves not on the guest list since by default they followed the Beast rather than God. I know its all silly and allegorical. But it does set up an either/or choice.
    You may argue that you prefer to opt-out and obey the message while considering the messenger, His Father, and the Dragon as myths. But if reality includes this whole paradigm you cant opt-out. Now let's discuss the idea that you have no free will. (Again)

    The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.lvin Coolidge
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
    Anne Lamott

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 392 by ringo, posted 01-22-2020 4:56 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 409 by ringo, posted 01-24-2020 10:50 AM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 405 of 507 (870710)
    01-24-2020 4:32 AM
    Reply to: Message 403 by jar
    01-23-2020 8:08 PM


    Re: Dogmatic Prophecy
    jar writes:
    What war has killed as many people as the flu?
    The Flu was reported to have killed 50 million+. World War II was claimed to have killed 75 million, including civilians. But what's your point? We will have a uniques situation where the top cities of the world, being at near sea level, will require mass migration. Though people (perhaps rightly) scoff at the whole mark of the beast "buy & sell" apologetic, the fact remains that global money is unstable and the US is the nation most capable of mass destruction.
    While I won't give too much credence to the prophecies of the apologists, I won't ignore them either. Jesus Christ is to me more than simply a character in the book. And quite frankly I believe that the evidence you ask for regarding God's communion/interaction with society is never going to be obvious.
    And funny you bring up 2 Peter since you and I have discussed it many times. It is the clear example of the necessity for the Apologist.
    Even if the vast global population of believers has it wrong, they will still behave as if it is real. This much is likely factual.
  • There will be further global population increase and more nations competing for resources.
  • The US will continue to have a sizeable portion of its population believing in last days' theology and being a stick in the mud regarding globalization. We may use force to acquire the resources that we have traditionally stolen.
  • Whether God intervenes or not, people will expect such an event more and more as the global problems increase. many will likely fall away from the faith and the love of many will grow cold(in the name of survival)
    Conclusion: It is irrelevant if it all is made up or not. Belief is still very powerful and there will never be a shortage of charlatans selling easy solutions.

    The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.lvin Coolidge
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
    Anne Lamott

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 403 by jar, posted 01-23-2020 8:08 PM jar has replied

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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 410 of 507 (870733)
    01-24-2020 11:06 AM
    Reply to: Message 409 by ringo
    01-24-2020 10:50 AM


    Re: Dogmatic Prophecy
    oh my stars!
    I am the First and the Last does not equate to I AM Everything! That's clear pantheism and we are talking monotheism.
    You claim that we are satan (and potentially we are God) in that its all human-centric. Revelation is unclear where all this vision takes place, but some will argue that both Satan and God are external to humanity and not a product of our imagination.

    The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.lvin Coolidge
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
    Anne Lamott

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 409 by ringo, posted 01-24-2020 10:50 AM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 411 by ringo, posted 01-24-2020 11:12 AM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 413 of 507 (870795)
    01-24-2020 9:35 PM
    Reply to: Message 411 by ringo
    01-24-2020 11:12 AM


    Re: Dogmatic Prophecy
    The cows have come home and still we argue!
    Phat writes:
    I am the First and the Last does not equate to I AM Everything!
    ringo writes:
    Yes it does. There are NO letters in the alphabet except those between Alpha and Omega. That is a very clear analogy. There is nothing before the Beginning and nothing after the End. that is a very clear analogy.
    It means that God existed before our beginning as humans...and perhaps before time itself began to exist...which would imply before space existed as well. God spoke the universe banged and later on, here we came.
    ringo writes:
    What on earth do you think those analogies mean if they are not all-inclusive?
    FYI:
    including everything or everyone.
    "the tab for the all-inclusive dinner is $38"
    There is a distinct difference between describing a physical universe, for example, that includes within itself everything and everyone and a Deity Who created everything and everyone. The very phrase "I Am" sums up the source of the voice that John heard.
    Rev 1:8 writes:
    "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End," says the Lord, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."
    So what on earth can you even suggest regarding all-inclusiveness? I am....(says the Lord). Panthesism would suggest that the universe itself was God. It was here before the big Bang and will stay here long after any scribes or supercomputers will be able to describe. But it is not possessive of a voice. John was clearly "in the spirit"...he was not hallucinating on magic mushrooms.
    Wiki writes:
    The definition of all inclusive is something where nothing is left out and where everything is considered or part of the package. An example of all inclusive is a resort where your drinks and meals are offered to you for free as part of your reservation at the resort.
    It makes more sense to imply a Creator/creation relationship rather than a whole of whom we (and Satan) are but parts of. If you see otherwise, thats only your stubborn propensity to argue about anything and everything and is not my fault. At best you have proven that your thinking is all inclusive of any point not made by your opponent!
    Rev 1:9-11 writes:
    I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. 10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet, 11 saying, "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last," and, "What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia: to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea."
    NKJV
    To be fair, it sounds a bit convoluted that John, writing in exile on the Island of patmos, would narrarate that he was on the island of patmos and "in the spirit" when he heard a voice. What do you think? That the narrative was written by someone else using john as a plot device? Anyway...to continue...
    We now see that God and jesus both are described as the first and the last. We know this last verse speaks of jesus rather than God the father because
    18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore.
    Another reason that Revelation seems plausible as coming from Jesus (through John, the one whom He loved) is due to the reprimand of the various church bodies in the world close to that time. This was long before the emperor Constantine made Christianity "official" so the very fact that there were churches suggests that people were prompted to create them for some reason. A Death, Burial, and Resurrection would suffice. The reprimand involves similar characteristics that one could find fault with in any church.
    Revelation 2:1-the Loveless Church
    Revelation 2:8-The Persecuted Church
    Revelation 2:12-The Compromising Church
    Revelation 2:18-The Corrupt Church
    Revelation 3:1-The Dead Church (as in lifeless and shallow)
    Revelation 3:7-The Faithful Church (suggestive of the Raptured Church, should that doctrine prove true..
    Revelation 3:14- The Lukewarm Church
    One can argue that these 7 churches each have 1 or more faults common to humanity.

    The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.lvin Coolidge
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
    Anne Lamott

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 411 by ringo, posted 01-24-2020 11:12 AM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 415 by ringo, posted 01-25-2020 11:04 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 414 of 507 (870797)
    01-24-2020 11:27 PM
    Reply to: Message 409 by ringo
    01-24-2020 10:50 AM


    Re: Dogmatic Prophecy
    ringo writes:
    If there is anything to that demented "Beast" story, the ones who "follow the Beast" are the ones who DO depend on God instead of doing it themselves.
    Hmmm reminds me of a scripture:
    Isaiah5:20 writes:
    Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!
    There are many scriptures that suggest that following God is the way to go. This does not mean that we are not doing anything "ourselves" for others...it simply means that this defines listening to God as He would want you to do for others. There is no such thing as doing anything yourself.(Of course, you don't see it, because you believe no God exists. ) And if God's voice somehow appeared in your conscience, you would think it to be a mental condition and take meds for it. You want to do everything yourself. Even if God existed you likely would close the door on Him.

    The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.lvin Coolidge
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
    Anne Lamott

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 409 by ringo, posted 01-24-2020 10:50 AM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 416 by ringo, posted 01-25-2020 11:12 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
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