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Author Topic:   Biblical contradictions.
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 77 of 329 (8175)
04-04-2002 6:49 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by TrueCreation
04-02-2002 11:42 AM


quote:
"Has something been omitted? Was 'Gods Word' edited by men? If so, by whom?"
--No
No?? Then why is there something called the King James VERSION? Why are there so many different Bibles, all translated differently with word choices lending different meanings to the passages?
[QUOTE]"And what are the implications on the validity of the Bible as the infallible word of God if it has been edited by men?"
--See above.
[/B][/QUOTE]
Answer the above, please.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by TrueCreation, posted 04-02-2002 11:42 AM TrueCreation has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by TrueCreation, posted 04-14-2002 5:49 PM nator has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 78 of 329 (8176)
04-04-2002 7:02 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by techristian
04-03-2002 11:13 PM


quote:
Originally posted by techristian:
Have you heard that cloning will produce an offspring that will age rapidly. It is believed that the clone will already have the age of the donor and tries to rapidly catch up to the age of the donor. All experiments including those recently done in Japan prove that cloning produced offspring with age. What is age, but a basic ENTROPY or BREAKING down of the DNA structure? I believe that God , in His infinite wisdom , knowing that we would attempt unethical cloning for body parts has already made it that our genetic material will age.
Dan
http://musicinit.com

Um, cloning has been happening naturally for a very long time.
Have you ever heard of identical twins?
In addition, plants are propogated by cloning all the time. I have a couple of cloned ferns growing in my living room right now, as a matter of fact.
------------------
"We will still have perfect freedom to hold contrary views of our own, but to simply
close our minds to the knowledge painstakingly accumulated by hundreds of thousands
of scientists over long centuries is to deliberately decide to be ignorant and narrow-
minded."
-Steve Allen, from "Dumbth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by techristian, posted 04-03-2002 11:13 PM techristian has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by TrueCreation, posted 04-14-2002 5:50 PM nator has replied

no2creation
Inactive Member


Message 79 of 329 (8435)
04-11-2002 1:54 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by TrueCreation
04-02-2002 7:37 PM


[QUOTE]Originally posted by TrueCreation:
[b]"a) His Sister??? OK. Where is the chapter & verse explaining this?"
--Not listed, just like the color of Jesus' hair. [/QUOTE]
[/b]
The color of his hair has no significance. While Cain's wife is an important piece of information that is mysteriously missing, funny thing about mythology!
[QUOTE][b]
"I ask again . . . .Has something been omitted?"
--Yes, everything irrelevant. [/QUOTE]
[/b]
LOL. Cain's wife is an important part of the story if the author wants it to appear factual.
[QUOTE][b]
"Who performed this editing?"
--Nothing was edited, this is the way it was written. [/QUOTE]
[/b]
How come there are so many translations? Each translation acting as a small edit for the book that hit's the shelves.
[QUOTE][b]
"b)In my limited knowledge of ancient history, it seems to me that most lands in biblical times were named for kings or for the peoples populating them, so where did these 'Nodites' come from?"
--There was no dynasty, no king, no ruler, nor leader. Just Adam, Eve, and their kids. This was an event preceeding the Flood, greatly altering land topography. [/QUOTE]
[/b]
Don't forget that many of Adam and Eves kids could have been left out because they were 'irrelevant'. After all they seem to have forgotten certain details about Cain’s wife.
[QUOTE][b]
"if they were the children of Adam & Eve, why is there no mention of their existence or lineage anywhere else in the Bible?"
--Because, it is history, and such as the flood and even the creation story, there are many parallels within other creation stories, which others in these forums would argue that these other creation stories are the origin of the biblical one while I see it on the contrary. Such stories would have been greatly altered to their taste and liking of the story-teller if not passed as a holy document, in which little if not anything would be altered. [/QUOTE]
[/b]
I would agree that it is history. It is history written in myths, exaggerated stories. Stories that were written to explain things that were not understood at the time. I.E. Noah’s Ark - was most likely a flood that took place while a local farmer collected his animals on his boat. The flood devastated the town he lived in and all the people. Noah then passed the story along to his kids who passed it on to their kids etc. Finally the story finds a nice little place in the bible, of course by this time the flood story covers the entire earth devastating absolutely everything, and Noah saved the day with loading two of every animal on his boat.
[QUOTE][b]
". . . .Has something been omitted?"
--Yes, everything irrelevant. [/QUOTE]
[/b]
A lot has been omitted, fictional books don't need to include all the details, it leaves a lot more for the imagination.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by TrueCreation, posted 04-02-2002 7:37 PM TrueCreation has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by TrueCreation, posted 04-14-2002 5:58 PM no2creation has not replied

TrueCreation
Inactive Member


Message 80 of 329 (8521)
04-14-2002 5:49 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by nator
04-04-2002 6:49 AM


"No?? Then why is there something called the King James VERSION? Why are there so many different Bibles, all translated differently with word choices lending different meanings to the passages?"
--Oh, you mean translations? Well if this is what your question pertains to, than in that light, sure abundant editing, though the same meaning. I could say, "Hola, como estas" in Espanol, though if I 'edit' it to read in English, "Hello, how are you", there is still the same meaning as the former.
------------------

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by nator, posted 04-04-2002 6:49 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by nator, posted 04-15-2002 9:38 AM TrueCreation has replied

TrueCreation
Inactive Member


Message 81 of 329 (8522)
04-14-2002 5:50 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by nator
04-04-2002 7:02 AM


"Um, cloning has been happening naturally for a very long time.
Have you ever heard of identical twins?
In addition, plants are propogated by cloning all the time. I have a couple of cloned ferns growing in my living room right now, as a matter of fact."
--Even though I do not know exactly what techristians point was, your form of cloning is a slightly different process than he asserted, so neither do I see your point as well.
------------------

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by nator, posted 04-04-2002 7:02 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by nator, posted 04-15-2002 9:41 AM TrueCreation has not replied

TrueCreation
Inactive Member


Message 82 of 329 (8523)
04-14-2002 5:58 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by no2creation
04-11-2002 1:54 AM


"
The color of his hair has no significance. While Cain's wife is an important piece of information that is mysteriously missing, funny thing about mythology!"
--Whether it is significant or relevent to the story, is your opinion, keep in mind this was written many thousand years ago, it is logical to say they may have seen more significance in a different veriety of specifics.
"LOL. Cain's wife is an important part of the story if the author wants it to appear factual."
--See above. you may think it is important, but why is it? Because you wan't to pin down the bible, technically, the bible could not be big enough for how many specifics you may want to meet your satisfaction.
"How come there are so many translations? Each translation acting as a small edit for the book that hit's the shelves."
--See my previous post.
"Don't forget that many of Adam and Eves kids could have been left out because they were 'irrelevant'. After all they seem to have forgotten certain details about Cain’s wife."
--Yes, it was irrelevent, otherwise they would have mentioned more of her, even assuming that he Got cains wife in another human creation in the land of nod, they still thought it irrelevent to give any more information.
"I would agree that it is history. It is history written in myths, exaggerated stories. Stories that were written to explain things that were not understood at the time. I.E. Noah’s Ark - was most likely a flood that took place while a local farmer collected his animals on his boat. The flood devastated the town he lived in and all the people. Noah then passed the story along to his kids who passed it on to their kids etc. Finally the story finds a nice little place in the bible, of course by this time the flood story covers the entire earth devastating absolutely everything, and Noah saved the day with loading two of every animal on his boat."
--Personal Opinions are always fine. Also, they must have been really smart, or very lucky to describe the mechenisms of the Flood.
"A lot has been omitted, fictional books don't need to include all the details, it leaves a lot more for the imagination."
--See above.
------------------

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by no2creation, posted 04-11-2002 1:54 AM no2creation has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 83 of 329 (8553)
04-15-2002 9:38 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by TrueCreation
04-14-2002 5:49 PM


quote:
Originally posted by TrueCreation:
"No?? Then why is there something called the King James VERSION? Why are there so many different Bibles, all translated differently with word choices lending different meanings to the passages?"
--Oh, you mean translations? Well if this is what your question pertains to, than in that light, sure abundant editing, though the same meaning. I could say, "Hola, como estas" in Espanol, though if I 'edit' it to read in English, "Hello, how are you", there is still the same meaning as the former.

You know full well that the way something is translated can easily change it's meaning, TC. Since Hebrew has no vowels, and the same word can have many different meanings depending upon context, don't you think that, if they wanted to, different translators could change the meanings of passages? Either on purpose or by accident?
What about the many entire chapters which were removed, early on in the Bible's history?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by TrueCreation, posted 04-14-2002 5:49 PM TrueCreation has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by TrueCreation, posted 04-19-2002 6:18 PM nator has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 84 of 329 (8554)
04-15-2002 9:41 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by TrueCreation
04-14-2002 5:50 PM


quote:
Originally posted by TrueCreation:
"Um, cloning has been happening naturally for a very long time.
Have you ever heard of identical twins?
In addition, plants are propogated by cloning all the time. I have a couple of cloned ferns growing in my living room right now, as a matter of fact."
--Even though I do not know exactly what techristians point was, your form of cloning is a slightly different process than he asserted, so neither do I see your point as well.

My point is that people throw around the "cloning is really bad" thing all the time without knowing what they are talking about.
I suspect that techristian is talking, specifically, about the cloning of large mammals, but that isn't what he actually said. He lumped all cloning together.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by TrueCreation, posted 04-14-2002 5:50 PM TrueCreation has not replied

dani17
Inactive Junior Member


Message 85 of 329 (8591)
04-15-2002 7:49 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by LudvanB
03-15-2002 1:06 AM


The belief of Christianity is something based on faith. Without faith you will be blinded by worldly beliefs and views. Look around you at trees, at the wind. Did these thing just evolve themselves to be what they are? No, God took the time to plan and create this beautiful things we have today. To get back to faith,Hebrews 11:1-3 says Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. For by it the elders obtained a good testimony. By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things whichare visible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by LudvanB, posted 03-15-2002 1:06 AM LudvanB has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by gene90, posted 04-15-2002 8:30 PM dani17 has not replied

gene90
Member (Idle past 3823 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 86 of 329 (8595)
04-15-2002 8:30 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by dani17
04-15-2002 7:49 PM


So aside from faith, Creationism has nothing going for it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by dani17, posted 04-15-2002 7:49 PM dani17 has not replied

TrueCreation
Inactive Member


Message 87 of 329 (8712)
04-19-2002 6:18 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by nator
04-15-2002 9:38 AM


"You know full well that the way something is translated can easily change it's meaning, TC. Since Hebrew has no vowels, and the same word can have many different meanings depending upon context, don't you think that, if they wanted to, different translators could change the meanings of passages? Either on purpose or by accident?"
--Yes, it would have been written in context of course. And possibly yes, though extreamly rare would errors be made, but then there is also the obsticle of having this error leaching into a stable agreement in post publications to come. Also, copies were copied directly from the previous text which was as stated earlier, taken into extreamly high consideration on word for word and letter for letter accuracy.
"What about the many entire chapters which were removed, early on in the Bible's history?"
--I have not heard of chapters themselves being removed, though books in their whole, yes.
--dani17 has pointed out a relevent verse, it shows how there may be no direct evidence of God, though there is always indirect evidence, which is also used for application for earth history.
------------------

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by nator, posted 04-15-2002 9:38 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by nator, posted 04-21-2002 10:40 AM TrueCreation has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 88 of 329 (8757)
04-21-2002 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by TrueCreation
04-19-2002 6:18 PM


quote:
Originally posted by TrueCreation:
[b]"You know full well that the way something is translated can easily change it's meaning, TC. Since Hebrew has no vowels, and the same word can have many different meanings depending upon context, don't you think that, if they wanted to, different translators could change the meanings of passages? Either on purpose or by accident?"
--Yes, it would have been written in context of course. And possibly yes, though extreamly rare would errors be made, but then there is also the obsticle of having this error leaching into a stable agreement in post publications to come. Also, copies were copied directly from the previous text which was as stated earlier, taken into extreamly high consideration on word for word and letter for letter accuracy.[/QUOTE]
Uh, you still haven't explained to me why there are so many different VERSIONS of the Bible, which each have somewhat different flavors and slants. Who cares if each 'copy' of the KJV of the Bible is pefectly-done? Why was it ever changed AT ALL to be different from any other Bible?
"What about the many entire chapters which were removed, early on in the Bible's history?"
--I have not heard of chapters themselves being removed, though books in their whole, yes.[/QUOTE]
OK, then what about the whole books which were removed?
[QUOTE]--dani17 has pointed out a relevent verse, it shows how there may be no direct evidence of God, though there is always indirect evidence, which is also used for application for earth history.
[/b][/QUOTE]
OK, please tell us what this evidence for God is.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by TrueCreation, posted 04-19-2002 6:18 PM TrueCreation has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by TrueCreation, posted 04-22-2002 7:33 PM nator has not replied

w_fortenberry
Member (Idle past 6107 days)
Posts: 178
From: Birmingham, AL, USA
Joined: 04-19-2002


Message 89 of 329 (8765)
04-22-2002 1:53 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by Diamus
03-17-2002 1:18 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Diamus:
Anyway, to get back on track here are a few assorted contradiction that are written in the bible.
Should we kill?
Exodus 20:13 "Thou shalt not kill."
Leviticus 24:17 "And he that killeth any man shall surely be put to death."
-------vs.-------
Exodus 32:27 "Thus sayeth the Lord God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, . . . and slay every man his brother, . . . companion, . . . neighbor."
I Samuel 6:19 " . . . and the people lamented because the Lord had smitten many of the people with a great slaughter."
I Samuel 15:2,3,7,8 "Thus saith the Lord . . . Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass. . . . And Saul smote the Amalekites . . . and utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword."
Numbers 15:36 "And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses."
Hosea 13:16 "they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with children shall be ripped up."
Though all judges have the right to be merciful, they also have the right to execute the Law to its full extent. In each of these passages, the ones being killed are those who have been found guilty under the Law. The ones doing the killing are carrying out the Law upon the order of the Judge. See Genesis 9:6. According to Matthew 12:5, those carrying out the Law are held blameless for any breaches of the Law necessary for is accomplishment.
quote:
Should we tell lies?
Exodus 20:16 "Thou shalt not bear false witness."
Proverbs 12:22 "Lying lips are an abomination to the Lord."
-------vs.-------
I Kings 22:23 "The Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee."
According to verses 20-22 of I Kings 22, God merely gave the lying spirit permission to persuade the king. He did not command the spirit to do this; He simply allowed that spirit to carry out its own designs. If you would like to research the ethics of this, allow me suggest a study of Romans 9:15-24.
quote:
II Thessalonians 2:11 "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie."
Here God will allow men to believe a lie because they have refused to believe the truth. In essence, He allows them to believe what they are already proclaiming as true.
II Thessalonians 2:12 "That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."
quote:
Should we steal?
Exodus 20:15 "Thou shalt not steal."
Leviticus 19:13 "Thou shalt not defraud thy neighbor, neither rob him."
-------vs.-------
Exodus 3:22 "And ye shall spoil the Egyptians."
Exodus 12:35-36 "And they spoiled [plundered] the Egyptians."
Luke 19:29-34 "[Jesus] sent two of his disciples, Saying, Go ye into the village . . . ye shall find a colt tied, whereon yet never man sat: loose him, and bring him hither. And if any man ask you, Why do ye loose him? thus shall ye say unto him, Because the Lord hath need of him. . . . And as they were loosing the colt, the owners thereof said unto them, Why loose ye the colt? And they said, The Lord hath need of him."
In response to the first two in your second set of verses, let me simply say that you did not complete the quotation of the given passages. Doing so might eliminate these two from your list. If not, let me refer you to my argumentation concerning your first proposed contradiction.
As for the final verse, you will notice first of all that the owners of the colt knew why and were present when it was being taken. You will also notice that Luke does not record their response to this action. Mark, on the other hand, records, "and they let them go." (Mark 11:6) Thus the colt was borrowed with consent of the owners. This hardly constitutes thievery on the part of the disciples.
quote:
Shall we keep the sabbath?
Exodus 20:8 "Remember the sabbath day to keep it holy."
Exodus 31:15 "Whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death."
Numbers 15:32,36 "And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. . . . And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses."
-------vs.-------
Isaiah 1:13 "The new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity."
John 5:16 "And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day."
Colossians 2:16 "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holy-day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days."
These verses can be best understood through a study of the following passages.
Matthew 12:1-8, I Samuel 15:22, Hosea 6:6, Micah 6:6-8, Romans 8:1-4, and Romans 9
quote:
Shall we make graven images?
Exodus 20:4 "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven . . . earth . . . water."
Leviticus 26:1 "Ye shall make ye no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone."
Deuteronomy 27:15 "Cursed be the man that maketh any graven or molten image."
-------vs.-------
Exodus 25:18 "And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them."
I Kings 7:15,16,23,25 "For he [Solomon] cast two pillars of brass . . . and two chapiters of molten brass . . . And he made a molten sea . . . it stood upon twelve oxen . . . [and so on]"
Please take another look at the passages referred to here. If you do so, you will find that you substituted a period for a semicolon in your quote of Exodus 20:4 and failed to quote verse five. You also inserted periods into the middle of Leviticus 26:1 and Deuteronomy 27:15, failing to provide the conclusion of either verse.
Let take Leviticus 26:1 as an example. If read in its entirety the verse states,
"Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God."
Notice the phrase, "to bow down unto it:" You will find a similar phrase in each of the passages in question. Thus the Cherubims crafted for the tabernacle and the temple ornamentation designed by Solomon are not condemned by the Law, for they were not created to be worshipped. On the contrary, they were created to point men to God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Diamus, posted 03-17-2002 1:18 PM Diamus has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by nator, posted 04-22-2002 12:22 PM w_fortenberry has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 90 of 329 (8774)
04-22-2002 12:22 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by w_fortenberry
04-22-2002 1:53 AM


OK, here is another contradiction which, to date, no Biblical literalist has been able to explain to me...
There are contradictory accounts of when Jesus was crucified, depending upon which Gospel you read. Matthew, Mark, and Luke all have him being crucified after passover, while John has him being crucified BEFORE Passover.
Most Biblical scholars say that the reason the John account is so different is because it was clear that Jesus really wasn't going to, LITERALLY, come back and make the Jews the ruling people of the land, as he had claimed in the Bible,
(Mat16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.)
so all of the reward for the people who followed Jesus was transferred to the afterlife.
Here's some more. So, how agout drinking a little poison for us? I choose Drano.
"67.Jesus said that his true followers will routinely perform the following tricks: 1) cast out devils, 2)speak in tongues, 3) take up serpents, 4) drink poisons without harm, and 5) cure the sick by touching them. Mk.16:17-18"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by w_fortenberry, posted 04-22-2002 1:53 AM w_fortenberry has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by w_fortenberry, posted 04-23-2002 3:03 AM nator has not replied

TrueCreation
Inactive Member


Message 91 of 329 (8809)
04-22-2002 7:33 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by nator
04-21-2002 10:40 AM


"Uh, you still haven't explained to me why there are so many different VERSIONS of the Bible, which each have somewhat different flavors and slants."
--One would simply because of change of syntax usage over time. Or because there are different words for the same thing.
"Who cares if each 'copy' of the KJV of the Bible is pefectly-done?"
--Seemed perfectly relevent to me.
"Why was it ever changed AT ALL to be different from any other Bible?"
--Well it really isn't unless you want to get into extream technics, such as 'to desire' has meanings such as:
quote:
desire Pronunciation Key (d-zr)
tr.v. desired, desiring, desires
To wish or long for; want.
To express a wish for; request.
n.
A wish or longing.
A request or petition.
The object of longing: My greatest desire is to go back home.
Sexual appetite; passion.
And to Want has meanings such as:
quote:
want Pronunciation Key (wnt, wnt)
v. wanted, wanting, wants
v. tr.
To desire greatly; wish for: They want to leave. She wants a glass of water. See Synonyms at desire.
To desire (someone to do something): I want you to clean your room.
To request the presence or assistance of: You are wanted by your office.
To seek with intent to capture: The fugitive is wanted by the police.
To have an inclination toward; like: Say what you want, but be tactful.
Informal. To be obliged (to do something): You want to be careful on the ice.
To be without; lack. See Synonyms at lack.
To be in need of; require: ‘Your hair wants cutting,’ said the Hatter (Lewis Carroll).
v. intr.
To have need: wants for nothing.
To be destitute or needy.
To be disposed; wish: Call me daily if you want.
n.
The condition or quality of lacking something usual or necessary: stayed home for want of anything better to do.
Pressing need; destitution: lives in want.
Something desired: a person of few wants and needs.
A defect of character; a fault.
--But of course any literate person could observe (another synonym of 'to see') that they are synonymous. Anyone can play semantics with various biblical translations, but the whole reason it was written is still there in every verse.
"OK, then what about the whole books which were removed? "
--Yes what about them? (I stated that I 'have not heard of chapters themselves being removed')
"OK, please tell us what this evidence for God is."
--Observation of opinionated design (opinionated), anthropical principle. I had a good one thought up today, possibly It will come to me.
------------------

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by nator, posted 04-21-2002 10:40 AM nator has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by w_fortenberry, posted 04-23-2002 3:40 AM TrueCreation has not replied

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