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Author Topic:   The Right Side of the News
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 4905 of 5796 (871552)
02-05-2020 11:21 AM
Reply to: Message 4893 by Percy
02-04-2020 6:51 PM


Re: Heritage Foundation Senior Analyst on the deficit and Natoinal Debt
God I loved that limit, but you might be right. Has anyone done the calculation to make sure that's sufficient to fix the problem? Or maybe the limit only has to be raised instead of eliminated.
Why should anyone be exempt privileged?
Enjoy

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 4893 by Percy, posted 02-04-2020 6:51 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4907 by Percy, posted 02-05-2020 1:04 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 4912 of 5796 (871568)
02-05-2020 4:55 PM
Reply to: Message 4904 by Percy
02-05-2020 11:20 AM


Re: Paying down the National Debt, improving society[qs]
It's isn't as simple as you think. Money paid for operating expenses isn't taxable, but money paid to expand the business is. Corporations can't make profits go away by investing in their business, something I just learned, which means I have to modify some of my response to Theodoric. Profits used to expand the business or purchase other companies are still profits.
Companies that diminish their profits by increasing employee compensation may find that they're both diminishing their competitiveness within their industry and foregoing opportunities for expansion of the business.
Companies that pay dividends will be discouraged from reducing profits, since dividends are paid out of profits.
So pumping money into offshore accounts ...
But what happens to "culture, creativity and wellbeing" when there's insufficient income for food and shelter?
It suffers unless there are other transactions (barter)
Put another way, as unemployment drops the competition for employees increases, thereby increasing wages, which increases business costs, which causes them to raise prices, which increases inflation thereby diminishing the value of the increased wages, etc., possibly setting off an inflationary spiral. ...
Not so cut and dry, as this is GOP talking point against minimum wages. What happens is that workers have more to spend so demand increases, increasing demand for workers to meet production needs. If late the problem has been overproduction and stalled demand because people were not spending.
And I think I do understand your point. There is a discernible element of "From each according to their ability, to each according to their needs" in your viewpoint.
Maybe, I am a Democratic Socialist, but my basic position can be stated simply:
First - those who benefit most from the economy that is supported by the government should (happily) pay more in taxes to support that government.
Second - all people should get equal care for stochastic events/diseases, etc and nobody should make a profit off the misery of another. Thus insurance and healthcare should be non-profit.
Third - basic living needs of all people should be met. The measure of a civilization is not how many millionaires exist, but how few starving children exist.
Abe ... & education for all through community college or trade schools. /Abe
I don't think it does. I made lifelong friendships while working that are a meaningful part of my life. I still have at least annual get togethers with people I met at work in 1980. I just now confirmed a lunch with friends from the company I retired from five years ago. Our human side doesn't disappear while working.
How many friends are from outside work, and isn’t that a narrow spectrum of people?
I'm racking my brain here for a ne'er-do-well who didn't work, but I can't think of one. I know they exist, I just don't happen to know any.
van Gogh
Is capitalism antithetical to cultural values?
The purpose of unchecked capitalism is to make few people rich and many people poor.
Enjoy
Edited by RAZD, : Per Jar

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 4904 by Percy, posted 02-05-2020 11:20 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4913 by jar, posted 02-05-2020 4:59 PM RAZD has replied
 Message 4917 by Percy, posted 02-06-2020 8:34 AM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 4914 of 5796 (871571)
02-05-2020 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 4907 by Percy
02-05-2020 1:04 PM


Re: Heritage Foundation Senior Analyst on the deficit and Natoinal Debt
Why should anyone be exempt privileged?
If you're asking why should Social Security deductions should be capped, it's because Social Security benefits are capped.
So? The intent was to provide a living income to retired people. Logically that should be available to all, regardless of how much they make. One amount applicable to all retired workers, spouses of retired workers (esp those who never worked in the $$ economy), disabled etc. Wrap all social assistance into one package.
For instance Faith says she gets $464/mo iirc. I get over $1000 (less than the maximum due to years worked in Canada). But I also have a comfortable income from investments I have made, so I use the SS to pay off a debt.
That doesn’t seem like the intent is fulfilled.
Enjoy
Edited by RAZD, : .
Edited by RAZD, : ..
Edited by RAZD, : Stupid spell check picking wrong words

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 4907 by Percy, posted 02-05-2020 1:04 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4919 by Percy, posted 02-06-2020 8:47 AM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 4915 of 5796 (871572)
02-05-2020 5:19 PM
Reply to: Message 4913 by jar
02-05-2020 4:59 PM


Re: Paying down the National Debt, improving society[qs]
Considered adding that, but went for brevity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4913 by jar, posted 02-05-2020 4:59 PM jar has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 4935 of 5796 (871641)
02-07-2020 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 4917 by Percy
02-06-2020 8:34 AM


Re: Paying down the National Debt, improving society[qs]
But you can't leave inflation out of the equation. Increased worker salaries mean that businesses must raise prices.
But if the change is how profits are distributed within a company, inflation should not be an issue.
Curiously I am amused by people so ready to accept a feudal type organization of corporations, when we fought a revolutionary war to get feudal type government out and replaced by a democratic system.
The answer, of course, is worker owned cooperatives, where all the workers decide major company policies, like pay and benefits, and they hire and fire managers. Not surprisingly they are successful and have high worker satisfaction. They also seem to be more robust in startups than your standard business model companies.
Mondragon Corporation - Wikipedia is a huge success story.
van Gogh
I meant among people I know.
And you don't wonder why there are no "van Gogh" type people in your circle of friends, but think you have a well rounded group. Interesting. I guess you don't know what you don't miss.
Yeah, sure, when I said "capitalism" I really meant "unchecked capitalism."
"Capitalism" without any modifiers defaults to unchecked capitalism. Capitalism is amoral, while socialism provides a moral culture. Done democratically it is OF the people FOR the people BY the people.
Enjoy
Enjoy

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 4917 by Percy, posted 02-06-2020 8:34 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4937 by Percy, posted 02-07-2020 2:30 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 4938 of 5796 (871652)
02-07-2020 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 4937 by Percy
02-07-2020 2:30 PM


Re: Paying down the National Debt, improving society[qs]
But considering just a single company, you suggest taking funds that would have been a company's profits and instead routing them to increased employee compensation. A company unilaterally raising wages within its industry would experience a number of negative consequences, including but not limited to lower competitiveness, increased cost of borrowing, lower dividends (if offered), lower stock price, decreased proceeds from stock offerings, and a diminished ability to expand the business or increase competitiveness.
Why? We see companies with substantially higher wages making similar or higher profits > Costco for one example, cooperatives for another.
You seem to miss the point. All wages are paid out of gross profits. We currently have businesses with CEO pay 700 times lowest worker wages.
The Mondragon cooperatives have a limit of 9 to 1 for highest pay to lowest. They account for substantial portion of the Spanish Economy (~1/3)
It's just a matter of how wages are allocated from gross profits.
You're responding to something never said. No claim of "well rounded" was ever made.
You said "the $$ economy ignores" that "there is more to life than making money," and I responded that the larger and more important part of our lives outside of work is only made possible by working, that I don't know any families where neither parent worked, that I don't even know anyone who never worked.
The point is that working makes possible the richness in our lives that we build outside of work. In personal terms, everyone I know is rich in terms of family and friends, which would not have happened had they not worked and earned money.
Now I would say that doing things with other people makes possible the richness in our lives. I have participated in many community orchestras and bands, was a boy scout leader for many years, and other volunteer programs, been part of our towns planning board, etc. and I find friends in all places, several of which I value more than any from work. Our town has an art renaissance zone to promote art and a historic society to preserve local history. To me there is much more to life that work and fellow workers.
All these volunteer organizations are part of our social economy but not part of the $$ economy.
What modifier should I use? Checked capitalism? Bridled capitalism? Restrained capitalism? ...
One you've used is regulated.
... Anyway, whatever modifier that might be, if you assume it's there every time anyone uses the word unmodified then you'll be right an astounding amount of the time.
Except when listening to republicans. Take marc9000 for instance and his claim that a free market will regulate itself better than government regulation.
I don't like the word "socialism" because it's become a loaded term, but if I understand you then we agree, social programs are very important.
And yet socialism is highly and increasingly popular in the youth these days. Republicans overplayed their hand in demonizing it. The bugbears have failed to be worse than the GOP.
Enjoy

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 4937 by Percy, posted 02-07-2020 2:30 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4941 by Percy, posted 02-07-2020 8:24 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 4952 of 5796 (871684)
02-09-2020 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 4919 by Percy
02-06-2020 8:47 AM


Social Security
RAZD writes:
So? The intent was to provide a living income to retired people.
If you mean the original intent back in 1934, no, that wasn't the intent then. If you mean what the intent should be today, I think that's an admirable goal, and I hope it's something we can figure out how to achieve.
From what I can find, the SS was intended as a pension for workers and that it would supersede the Old-Age, Survivors, and Disability Insurance (OASDI). This has in fact happened as the OASDI is now incorporated into the SS program and is administered by the Social Security Administration.
Social Security (United_States) - Wikipedia
A pension is intended to provide a living income on retirement.
You didn't say what you thought it was originally intended for.
One amount applicable to all retired workers, spouses of retired workers (esp those who never worked in the $$ economy), disabled etc.
There are significant regional differences in cost of living and of healthcare.
Agreed. That just means it would need to be regionally adjusted. We should also look into what causes these differences - especially when it comes to places like native reservations.
Wrap all social assistance into one package.
If it can be done then that would be great, but personally I don't think this kind of simplicity is possible.
So the complication of having several different bureaucracies at several different levels all doing essentially the same thing is preferable?
We can go a step further and include taxation, so one bureaucracy handles the give and take.
Enjoy
Edited by Admin, : Fix link.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 4919 by Percy, posted 02-06-2020 8:47 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4959 by Percy, posted 02-09-2020 5:04 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 4953 of 5796 (871686)
02-09-2020 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 4941 by Percy
02-07-2020 8:24 PM


Social economy
RAZD writes:
But considering just a single company, you suggest taking funds that would have been a company's profits and instead routing them to increased employee compensation. A company unilaterally raising wages within its industry would experience a number of negative consequences, including but not limited to lower competitiveness, increased cost of borrowing, lower dividends (if offered), lower stock price, decreased proceeds from stock offerings, and a diminished ability to expand the business or increase competitiveness.
Why?
Because of their reduced profits relative to other companies in their industry.
Curiously that fails to (a) follow my argument and (b) explain why you think that means raising prices.
We currently have businesses with CEO pay 700 times lowest worker wages.
CEO compensation is a separate issue from unilaterally raising employee compensation within an industry, but I of course agree that executive compensation is out of control.
Is this how you get raised prices, by keeping CEO pay as a separate issue?
No. It is the same issue: the issue of where the gross profit money goes. It doesn't reduce net profits to cut CEO compensation to a max of 10 times the lowest paid job and redistribute that to the workers.
The Mondragon cooperatives have a limit of 9 to 1 for highest pay to lowest. They account for substantial portion of the Spanish Economy (~1/3)
Spain's GDP was $1.3 trillion in 2017. Mondragon's revenues were $6.5 billion in 2018. It's less than 1% of the Spanish economy.
My mistake. Miss remembered.
quote:
Mondragon Corporation - Wikipedia
The Mondragon Corporation is a corporation and federation of worker cooperatives based in the Basque region of Spain. It was founded in the town of Mondragon in 1956 by graduates of a local technical college. Its first product was paraffin heaters. It is the tenth-largest Spanish company in terms of asset turnover and the leading business group in the Basque Country. At the end of 2014, it employed 74,117 people in 257 companies and organizations in four areas of activity: finance, industry, retail and knowledge.[3] By 2015, 74,335 people were employed. Mondragon cooperatives operate in accordance with the Statement on the Co-operative Identity maintained by the International Co-operative Alliance.
Tenth largest company and the leading business group in the Basque Country. If the Basque areas of France and Spain were a single country it would be the leading corporation and the primary provider of GDP
Should we assume GDP (Gross Domestic Product) is a valid comparison, when import/export are not included?
Spain is near Greece in the EU problem basket, which means GDP alone is not a good measure, imho.
It's just a matter of how wages are allocated from gross profits.
Employee compensation is an expense, not a deduction from profits. Think about it. If employee compensation was paid out of profits, then companies with no profits could not compensate their employees.
You're confusing gross profits with net profits.
Volunteering is a great way to contribute to the community, but I think most volunteer organizations would be part of the $$ economy. The YMCA has hundreds of thousands of volunteers, but it's definitely part of the $$ economy, as I think most if not all nonprofits would be. And volunteers get significant discounts on member and program fees, so they're compensated for their volunteering. Towns are part of the $$ economy, even if committee work is done by unpaid volunteers.
Curiously I would say that the $$ economy is a part of the social economy rather than try to cram these aspects of the social economy into a $$ economy equivalent. The value of a stay-at-home mom is large in the social economy but neglected in the $$ economy. The social economy exists whether it is recognized or not.
Social economy - Wikipedia
It is poorly recognized in the US, well recognized in the Nordic countries.
Enjoy
Edited by RAZD, : .
Edited by RAZD, : ..

we are limited in our ability to understand
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 4941 by Percy, posted 02-07-2020 8:24 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4960 by Percy, posted 02-09-2020 5:43 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 4962 of 5796 (871725)
02-10-2020 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 4960 by Percy
02-09-2020 5:43 PM


Re: Social economy facing the bigger problem
The paragraph you questioned didn't mention raising prices, but raising prices would be one way to deal with increased costs such as increasing employee compensation.
Reading your responses to Theoderic I see that you saying unilateral raises to employee compensation, and this is not what I have said, only that the lowest paid worker should earn a living wage for 40 hours work per week. To achieve this does not require unilateral raises for everyone, but a modification to the pay scales such that the net cost is the same. It provides a more balanced pay structure, especially when it comes to CEO pay.
This issue is beside the point, but employee compensation is not paid out of gross or net profits. In the view you seem to be advocating, if a company had no gross profits and no net profits but instead had a loss, then they could not compensate their employees because there would have been no profits out of which to pay them.
But companies that lose money in a fiscal year do compensate their employees, so the way you're looking at this must be wrong. The way in which you're wrong is that companies do not pay their employees out of profits, neither gross or net.
Whatever. You still miss the point.
quote:
Net income - Wikipedia
In business and accounting, net income (also total comprehensive income, net earnings, net profit, bottom line, sales profit, or credit sales) is a measure of the profitability of a venture. It is an entity's income minus cost of goods sold, expenses (e.g., SG&A), depreciation and amortization, interest, and taxes for an accounting period.[1] It is computed as the residual of all revenues and gains over all expenses and losses for the period,[2] and has also been defined as the net increase in shareholders' equity that results from a company's operations.[3] It is different from the gross income, which only deducts the cost of goods sold.
The lowest wages can be increased without changing the net profit, by decreasing the top level pay/salaries/compensation/etc. Those changes can be prorated for all workers in between. The end result is higher minimum wage with no net increase in cost, no loss in profit. Not everybody gets a raise as you seem to imply.
In a standard business model company the pay rates for all people are set by the top management in an authoritarian manner. In a Cooperative Worker Owned venture the pay rates are voted on democratically by all the workers. That is the essence of democratic socialism vs un(der)regulated capitalism.
Curiously I would say that the $$ economy is a part of the social economy rather than try to cram these aspects of the social economy into a $$ economy equivalent. The value of a stay-at-home mom is large in the social economy but neglected in the $$ economy. The social economy exists whether it is recognized or not.
Social economy - Wikipedia
It is poorly recognized in the US, well recognized in the Nordic countries.
The article you cited makes it pretty clear that the social economy is part of the $$ economy. The word profit appears 22 times.
Wow. Profit can occur in socialist economies, so that is a non-starter. The social economies also include things not in the $$ economy, such as volunteering and such as arts and entertainment. Sure you can make up $$ values for these, but they rarely represent the time spent perfecting the arts etc. Ask a musician how much he gets paid for gigs and whether they think it is adequate compensation. Ask a painter, a dancer, etc.
But that aside, the biggest problem facing people is automation and who benefits. How long before long lines of unemployed people displaced by automation start showing in the employment documentations (we already ignore many people in that "calculation" ... how many more will happen) is not tolerated. They are forgotten by the $$ economy but are part of the Social Economy ... because they are people. How do we as a society provide for them?
Enjoy

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 4960 by Percy, posted 02-09-2020 5:43 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4964 by Percy, posted 02-10-2020 6:41 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 4963 of 5796 (871726)
02-10-2020 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 4959 by Percy
02-09-2020 5:04 PM


Re: Social Security
Social Security was originally intended, and still is, as supplemental. ... not a living income. ....
quote:
Social Security - Wikipedia(United_States)
A limited form of the Social Security program began, during President Franklin D. Roosevelt's first term, as a measure to implement "social insurance" during the Great Depression of the 1930s.[14] The Act was an attempt to limit unforeseen and unprepared-for dangers in modern life, including old age, disability, poverty, unemployment, and the burdens of widow(er)s with and without children.
Social programs in the United States - Wikipedia
Prior to the Great Depression the United States had social programs that mostly centered around individual efforts, family efforts, church charities, business workers compensation, life insurance and sick leave programs along with some state tax supported social programs. The misery and poverty of the great depression threatened to overwhelm all these programs. The severe Depression of the 1930s made Federal action necessary,[12] as neither the states and the local communities, businesses and industries, nor private charities had the financial resources to cope with the growing need among the American people.[13] Beginning in 1932, the Federal Government first made loans, then grants, to states to pay for direct relief and work relief. After that, special Federal emergency relief like the Civilian Conservation Corps and other public works programs were started.[14] In 1935, President Franklin D. Roosevelt's administration proposed to Congress federal social relief programs and a federally sponsored retirement program. Congress followed by the passage of the 37 page Social Security Act, signed into law August 14, 1935 and "effective" by 1939just as World War II began. This program was expanded several times over the years.
Economic historians led by Price Fishback have examined the impact of New Deal spending on improving health conditions in the 114 largest cities, 1929—1937. They estimated that every additional $153,000 in relief spending (in 1935 dollars, or $2.2 million in 2018 dollars) was associated with a reduction of one infant death, one suicide, and 2.4 deaths from infectious disease.[15][16]
The intent was to save lives, improve health and reduce misery. Maybe not a "living wage" as currently defined, but enough to limit deaths. Initially. We might call that a starvation wage (matching your annual numbers) today, but we have grown since then with our awareness of human rights.
The biggest challenge ahead is automation reducing jobs dramatically with no replacements.
Enjoy
Edited by RAZD, : .

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(2)
Message 5200 of 5796 (872964)
03-07-2020 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 5155 by Percy
03-06-2020 7:20 AM


Redbaiting on the rise again
I'm going to toss this in here to stir your pot a bit:
A little truth behind the scenes.
Enjoy

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Replies to this message:
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 Message 5208 by Faith, posted 03-07-2020 4:31 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 5203 of 5796 (872968)
03-07-2020 1:28 PM
Reply to: Message 5176 by Faith
03-07-2020 8:51 AM


Re: Coronavirus Continues US Spread
You either quarantine them on the ship or you quarantine them on a military base somewhere in the country. Are you arguing for the latter?
A ship is not a hospital nor does it have the capacity to become one -- it is an incubator.
A military base does have medical facilities and can erect quarantine structures as needed.
Enjoy

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 5251 of 5796 (873069)
03-09-2020 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 5239 by Percy
03-09-2020 8:26 AM


Re: As Reagan said it would, Fascism is coming from the Left these days
Under the Trump administration the annual deficit has increased rapidly, unusual in a healthy economy:
It's what happens when you throw a lot of money into the system in a way that it boosts the stock market. It's artificial growth.
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RAZD
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Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 5252 of 5796 (873071)
03-09-2020 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 5222 by Faith
03-08-2020 2:44 PM


sovereign nation
We are essentially bankrupt now, we just keep pretending we aren't.
It is not possible for a sovereign nation -- one that prints its own money -- to be bankrupt. Of course this can cause inflation unless balanced by other fed behavior, such as changing interest rates.
Sovereign nation legal definition of Sovereign nation
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 5254 of 5796 (873076)
03-09-2020 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 5253 by Faith
03-09-2020 11:54 AM


Re: sovereign nation
All I meant was that we are so enormously in debt it's as good as being bankrupt. Bad choice of wording I guess.
See Modern Monetary Theory (MMT) Definition
quote:
The central idea of MMT is that governments with a fiat currency system can and should print (or create with a few keystrokes in today's digital age) as much money as they need to spend because they cannot go broke or be insolvent unless a political decision to do so is taken.
MMT theorists explain that the national debt is simply money the government put into the economy and didn't tax back. They also argue that comparing a government's budgets to that of an average household is a mistake.
While supporters of the theory acknowledge that inflation is theoretically a possible outcome from such spending, they say it is highly unlikely, and can be fought with policy decisions in the future if required. They often cite the example of Japan which has much higher public debt than the U.S..
According to MMT, the only limit the government has when it comes to spending is the availability of real resources, like workers, construction supplies etc. When government spending is too great with respect to the resources available, inflation can surge if decision makers are not careful.
It seems anti-intuitive, but it also seems to accurately explain economic behavior.
Enjoy

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 Message 5253 by Faith, posted 03-09-2020 11:54 AM Faith has not replied

  
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