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Author | Topic: Charismatic Chaos | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
ringo writes:
What about the God (pick one) from the OT? What about Jesus Father? What about Jesus Himself? Would you be eager to meet Him or would you wave Him off and say that you were doing just fine? I have no desire to meet the loathsome "god" that Faith worships. I've been listening to Bart Campolo talk about how his Theology changed time and again as he struggled to adjust his beliefs to the God whom he thought he understood. Finally, he just threw the whole concept away...but he does not call himself an atheist because he feels that it sets him up as an anti theist...sometghing he does not desire to be portrayed as. Hence, he is a Humanist Chaplain. Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide
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Phat Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Phat writes:
And what still bothers me is your idea that the lessons can have value even if not literally coming from God.jar writes: It bothers me because it suggests that God is not necessary. It's like replacing God with yourself. And I can't understand how someone can claim to be a believer when they only abstractly (and historically) believe in an unknown God. Paul himself addresses this issue in Why Phat? Why does it bother you?Acts 17:23 writes: And many people ridicule the idea of god simply and solely due to no objective evidence on which to hang their hat. The fact is that we cannot objectively verify every concept proposed philosophically and theologically to humanity. Human-Centric does not work when attempting to describe and define God. Thus...
Paul Before the Areopagus22Then Paul stood up in the meeting of the Areopagus and said, Men of Athens, I see that in every way you are very religious. 23For as I walked around and examined your objects of worship, I even found an altar with the inscription: To an unknown God. Therefore what you worship as something unknown, I now proclaim to you. 24The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples made by human hands. Phat writes: Why do you feel it is productive, necessary, and dare I say even possible to "Throw God Away?" jar writes: That last bit was sorta word salad, but you likely made a punctuation error. To refocus, my question is how you define what a believer is? To me, a believer can actually talk with God alone in a room without concern that they are mentally deranged. They feel comfortable talking..praying...and above all listening for some feedback. And we believe though cannot objectively prove that we hear from Him. I won't even bother trying to explain that.
Because ALL of the evidence shows that every single God(s) or god(s) is just the product of a human imagination and that they exist only so long as there are believers that they are more than just the product of a human imagination.Phat writes:
The fact that nobody has ever been able to explain to you what a relationship with Jesus even is or how it is possible baffles and challenges me.jar writes: You are proud of that, aren't you! It validates the rationality of your choice of beliefs and at the same time invalidates Biblical Christianity as a joke. (in your mind) But you paint with a broad brush.
Yet the fact is that neither you nor anyone else has ever explained what that means or how it could be possible. Facts, evidence, counts. So again, what does it mean to you to believe and yet not dare to relate to the invisible presence in the room? Are you too adoring of logic, reason, and perceived reality? The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide
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Phat Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Have I ever claimed to be God? Does not the Bible over and over say that it is humans that need to do? Who built and filled the granaries? That's a good point but it still leaves me puzzled about your apparent definition of belief. Just because logic tells you that you are talking to yourself rather than with God, why not do it anyway? You may be surprised how far belief can take you. Or do you believe more in the idea of what *we* are charged to do and be and not on what God can do for us? (I think I hit that nail on the head) So why not take a leap of faith and believe in God's power rather than our responsibility? I'm not dismissing responsibility but communion with omnipotence sure helps. I cherish my realationship...even if critics say it is all in my imagination. I think they just dont understand it. You claim that you believe that God relates to everybody on equal terms, but Im not convinced. Im not so special nor are you so dense.The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide
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Phat Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Let's hold him to that, Greg. Here is one of their slogan cards:
jar writes: Who wrote the Psalms? Have you ever read the Bible, jar? Your own church tells you to do the following:
It is not a matter of what I dare, it is simply acknowledging that no one has ever explained how it might be possible to relate to the creator of all that is, seen and unseen.quote: You ask me how would I know its God? Or How would I know it is Jesus? Are not the very Psalms themselves an explanation of how one lyricist relates to this God? This Creator of all seen and unseen? Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given. Edited by Thugpreacha, : trying to fix broken quote. Seems this cloud server does not allow that Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide
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Phat Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Pray: Dwell intentionally with God each day
jar writes: Yes. And one thing that is evident is that you base your world view on Matthew 25 and have reinforced ringos similar philosophy. You have shown many other things of course. You are a unique teacher in that few if any of the other Bible teachers I know teach personal responsibility above Holy Communion and relationship. GDR has a point in that you criticize Biblical Christians (as if they could be lumped together) and the philosophy of trusting and following Jesus. Why should we even try to explain it to you? We don't need to explain much to each other.
Have I ever mentioned Jesus' teachings? jar writes: Yes, and I fully agree with you on that. Religion (Belief) should not be a continual gathering with ones "club" or "tribe" simply to drum up more money or engage in emotional overload. If you have reemphasized one core element of teaching, it is that Christianity is about what we do. Have I ever mentioned the fact the one of the purposes of the BCP is to bring worship into the house beyond some weekly event and make it part of the daily life? GDR does have a point, though. You are often critical and occasionally a wee bit arrogant. We still love ya though...ya old texan.
Learn to think Phat. OK. Convince me why it would be helpful for me to throw God away and what precisely that would mean in regard to thinking.
Slogan cards are for the little minds. Slogan Cards are like Cliff Notes. They help one to focus on what they have already learned. They only work if you read the original book. We don't necessarily need to know what you believe. We are more interested in why you believe it, how you arrived at your conclusions, and why you--unique among Christians we know--cant simply accept what many others accept without not only questioning it but trashing it. Yes, many CCoI do need to learn how to think, for their own good and edification. But were they to listen to your advice, they would not understand why their beliefs are but those of a huge con game and why they would ever be asked to throw away their precious God...Who represents their common hope for the future. It would seem to follow that if you advocated God simply as a symbolic ritual and mythos, you are in fact not a believer. You can say you are, and you can retreat into the domain of personal business, but you cant convince us that you believe the way that we believe. Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given. Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide
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Phat Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Our friendly Texan has stated many times that he is a believer. You ask if he is agnostic. Let's ask Mr. Dictionary!
Mr.Dictionary writes: a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God.skeptic doubter questioner doubting Thomas challenger scoffer cynic unbeliever disbeliever nonbeliever rationalist nullifidian Of course, the record shows that jar says he is a believer. Perhaps you should ask him why he does not fit the definition that the Dictionary has for an agnostic. Perhaps his idea of belief differs notably from yours or mine. He likely will defend his believer status by saying he is a member of an established club. That he attended Christian schools and was raised in a Christian home. and yet, like the definition, he says that there is no way that we can know God. The Socratic teachers are strong in this one. Add by edit: He has us though in that, unlike the definition, he does claim faith. I would argue that he has faith in his ability to be responsible and fulfill the charge. Unlike myself, he won't embrace belief without evidence. Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given. Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide
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Phat Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
jar writes: The content of what? Of the books, we have read? The priests we have learned from? The teachers? What about the content of our own preconceived notions, beliefs, and hopes and dreams? we are charged to test the content against logic, reason and reality. What if God is illogical, often felt to be unreasonable, and not discernible in reality? Would you ever then choose agnosticism in the strict definition of the word? The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide
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Phat Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
I think what he (or I) is trying to say is that to you, the "I believes" are not direct belief in God's influence but in your charge. Would you not agree that David in the Psalms seemed to have a relationship with God as he understood Him and not in his charge and duty exclusively. You essentially have eliminated the possibility (or desire) of interaction.
The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide
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Phat Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
They are quite liberal. Here are two cartoons from an Episcopalian humor page. the first one sounds like jar:
The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide
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Phat Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
I guess I'm somewhere between fanaticism and skepticism. I did find your honest apologist in Bart Campolo. Ironically, he is everything my evangelical Christian friends would despise, but I trust him. I know you cant hear audio at the Saskatch Library, but he had me on his podcast. (my voice, anyway)
Ironic that he left the Faith and is a secular humanist Chaplain. I am having a 30-minute consultation with him tonite so I will get a better feel for his integrity. The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide
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Phat Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
If you figure a way to do it, I would encourage you to follow through. Just how will we test him?
The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide
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Phat Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
he used no scripture. Remember he is a secular humanist chaplain. He basically just gave me 3 things to think about.
1) Be careful who I listen to2) Be honest with myself 3) Don't be afraid. The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide
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Phat Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
ringo writes: How is he an apologist if he uses no scripture? Because he was a believer for 20 years. God is still very much "in" him. He knew very little about me and yet accurately described my basic issues...apart from the gay thing. I had a further conversation with him for an hour on Skype and he told me the same things as other counselors who took 5 or 6 sessions to deduce. His Dad remains a Christian and he told me that he had no problem with me remaining one if it "worked for me". I told him I had many questions but no doubts.
In The Pew But Questioning # 504 Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide
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Phat Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
David Diga Hernandez is one of the new crop of young preachers doing the same thing that the old guys like Hinn used to do. I have yet to see any scandalous activity from him. Judge for yourselves. is it staged? Fake? Are the people simply expecting something to happen and falling on their own?
The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide
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Phat Member Posts: 18310 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
ringo writes: The "healing" of the lady on crutches is probably staged. Let me pick a person to be healed.The falling down is theatrical silliness. Let's see God catch them. If people go to a healing service "expecting something" it always makes me wonder why they cant simply expect God to do it anyway. Judging myself and my own behavior, I could break it down this way...(though I dont like it it sounds right)
Let's see God catch them. Maybe He wants them to fall on their blessed assurance and get up by themselves. The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide
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