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Author | Topic: Biblical Support for the Pre-Tribulation Rapture | |||||||||||||||||||||||
PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: Of course you don’t want to debate but debate is the purpose of this site. If you want to preach without the truth being allowed a look in, go elsewhere. I don’t believe that you are interested in saving anyone either. If you were this would be a very odd topic to choose. Salvation is not a matter of believing as you do. Nor is it a matter of spreading falsehood and hate.
quote: Of course you’re evil. I’m convinced that you are hoping for the Antichrist, would worship the Antichrist, maybe even believe that you’re the Antichrist. But you certainly aren’t the Antichrist.
quote: If there is such a great case, feel free to present it.
quote: Vicarius refers to a subordinate appointed to act in the place of his superior. That title identifies the Pope as serving Jesus which is hardly true of the Antichrist. Simply extracting the letters that correspond to Roman Numerals and adding them up is a dubious procedure too - as everyone knows IV is 4, not 6. The rest is just superstition. I’m sure you can come up with similar things about other people if you try. That’s why there have been so many alleged Antichrists
quote: I would think that you should at least wait until you have a plausible case. Unless the real point is to smear the Roman Catholic Church.
quote: According to the Gospels, the Tribulation is shortened to protect the Elect (Mark 13:20) and Jesus is to gather his Saints after the Tribulation (Mark 13:24-27). That hardly sounds like the Rapture taking the Christians away first. Face it, Biblical End Times prophecies are a mess. As I’ve shown.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: I think we can say that the indicators that apply specifically to Francis are both very weak and lacking Biblical foundation. Indeed they have more to do with Roman paganism than Christianity. Even the arguments against the Papacy in general are weak.
quote: It shouldn’t be convincing. The Number is supposed to refer to a name, not a title and picking out Roman numerals and adding them up is a highly questionable procedure - it ignores most of the letters and the usual way of writing numbers with Roman numerals for a start. Your conviction seems to have very little to do with the argument. As I said in my previous post, End a Times prophecy is a mess. The various prophecies do not agree, and Jeffress’s reading is strained at best.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
So let’s take a more serious look.
Let us start with the only clear reference to the Rapture - 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. That seems pretty clear that the Rapture follows the Second Coming - which comes after the Tribulation Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. 26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. The Revelation is a bit of a problem here since 1 Thessalonians has all the dead Christians resurrected in the Rapture while the Revelation has no general resurrection of Christians until after the Millennium. Revelation 20 4:6
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. So we have explicit statements here. Jefress offers none that support his claims - only questionable interpretations. Surely this is the opposite of what Biblical inerrantists are supposed to believe. should they not say that Jefress’ interpretations are wrong because they contradict what the Bible clearly says ?
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
So you’re asserting that the AntiChrist claims to serve Jesus ? Where do you get that from ?
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: It’s not just what the Pope says it’s what the title means - and you call it the title of the AntiChrist - but AntiChrist means against Christ.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: Vicarius means neither against nor usurper (not that anti means usurper). It’s related to vice as in Vice President. Dies that title mean that Mike Pence is against or the usurper of Donald Trump?
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: In context AntiChrist pretty clearly means against Christ. How could it possibly mean a Vice Christ (in the same sense as Vice President)?
quote: You are asserting it but it certainly is not true. A vicarius is not a usurper - the very title denies it.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: Obviously from the anti-Catholic propaganda you so love. Except when it’s not vicious enough. It’s just one of the ways your evil shows itself.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
And complaining about ad hominem is one of your convenient excuses for dismissing the truth.
The fact is that you actually did complain that today’s anti-Catholic propaganda wasn’t vicious enough. You don’t have a good understanding of Catholic teaching. You do love hate and lies. We all know it, and you aren’t exactly shy about showing it.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: In other words he’s telling the truth and opposing your lies. Your belief in the power of lies is one of the things that convinces me of your dedication to Satan.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: It was a while ago, it would take a lot of effort to find and you’ll just ignore it anyway. So why should I bother.?
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: That’s a pretty bizarre view, given that Islam never supported the Roman Empire. If you are going to insist on a reference to Romans and you are going to insist that the two legs are significant why not the Orthodox Church for the Eastern Empire ? (It’s all daft anyway because Daniel was not referring to Rome and didn’t make anything of the legs).
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
This is just a collection of questionable interpretations that ignores the most relevant scripture (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17) See Message 54 in this thread.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
The main point is the obvious one - 1 Thessalonians says that the Rapture will follow the Second Coming - which comes after the Tribulation (I trust that you will not deny that!)
Perhaps you can explain why you think that any member of the Church of Philadelphia around 100AD would need to be Raptured to escape the Tribulation, or why Revelation 3:11 does not imply that the members are supposed to hold out until Jesus returns.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: That’s sort of sad. And not very Protestant. The Bible might as well have stayed in Latin as far as you’re concerned.
quote: Or it can be interpreted as Jesus gathering his people as in Mark 13:27. Really why wouldn’t you read it in the light of the Gospels?
quote: But why assume an additional event where Jesus sort of comes back but nobody left on Earth can see it? This interpretation seems to be motivated solely by a need to deny the obvious reading - presumably because that reading puts the Rapture after the Tribulation.
quote: Because you like Robert Jefress even though his arguments are very, very weak.
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