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Author Topic:   Biblical Support for the Pre-Tribulation Rapture
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 46 of 330 (871763)
02-12-2020 12:53 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by Faith
02-11-2020 7:06 PM


Re: The Antichrist of the Great Tribulation
quote:
As usual I don't really want to debate, I want to preach. Of course. The whole idea is to get people saved, especially those who don't want to be saved. But debate is certain to happen. This is EvC after all.
Of course you don’t want to debate but debate is the purpose of this site. If you want to preach without the truth being allowed a look in, go elsewhere.
I don’t believe that you are interested in saving anyone either. If you were this would be a very odd topic to choose. Salvation is not a matter of believing as you do. Nor is it a matter of spreading falsehood and hate.
quote:
So I've been told here that I am the last one to expect to be raptured, I've even been told I AM the Antichrist. I'm that evil in the eyes of some here.
Of course you’re evil. I’m convinced that you are hoping for the Antichrist, would worship the Antichrist, maybe even believe that you’re the Antichrist. But you certainly aren’t the Antichrist.
quote:
The Reformation identification of the Pope is often rejected just because there is a succession of Popes while scripture seems to point to a singular figure who appears at the very end of time before Christ returns, as THE Antichrist. Well, the biblical evidence for the papacy as the Antichrist is very strong. The only conclusion has to be that one of them, the very last one, will be the singular figure identified in scripture.
If there is such a great case, feel free to present it.
quote:
And there is one interesting way he can be identified by that number 666 too: It's not clear where the Latin title occurs, whether in his tiara or mitre or throne or what, but the Latin title Vicarivs Filii Dei contains Roman numerals (Latin is interesting that way. Many languages have numbers or Gematria assigned to the letters of their alphabet, but Latin has them embedded IN their alphabet. No, I don't know if this is unique to Latin but it may be. ANYWAY, add up the Roman numerals of that title, a title which is certainly a name of the Pope, "Substitute for the Son of God" or "In the Place of the Son of God." The title alone identifies him as the Antichrist, but add up the numerals: they add up to 666.
Vicarius refers to a subordinate appointed to act in the place of his superior. That title identifies the Pope as serving Jesus which is hardly true of the Antichrist. Simply extracting the letters that correspond to Roman Numerals and adding them up is a dubious procedure too - as everyone knows IV is 4, not 6.
The rest is just superstition. I’m sure you can come up with similar things about other people if you try. That’s why there have been so many alleged Antichrists
quote:
So, the "rational" people at EvC will likely just scoff at all this of course, all this symbolism and odd occurrendes. Just "coincidences" of course. I expect that and we can argue it, but the point here is mostly to alert people to possibilities that MIGHT happen, that you would need to know about IF THEY DID happen. OK?
I would think that you should at least wait until you have a plausible case. Unless the real point is to smear the Roman Catholic Church.
quote:
So THE Antichrist is to reign during the Seven Year period called the Great Tribulation, after Chrstians have disappeared from Planet Earth. He'll be worshipped, at least at first. Then all Hell is to break loose.
According to the Gospels, the Tribulation is shortened to protect the Elect (Mark 13:20) and Jesus is to gather his Saints after the Tribulation (Mark 13:24-27). That hardly sounds like the Rapture taking the Christians away first.
Face it, Biblical End Times prophecies are a mess. As I’ve shown.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Faith, posted 02-11-2020 7:06 PM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 48 of 330 (871766)
02-12-2020 3:00 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Faith
02-12-2020 2:30 AM


Re: If Francis is The Antichrist, then the Great Tribulationi is just around the corner
quote:
The point to my post is that if the indicators I've given are valid, the final days must be very close.
I think we can say that the indicators that apply specifically to Francis are both very weak and lacking Biblical foundation. Indeed they have more to do with Roman paganism than Christianity.
Even the arguments against the Papacy in general are weak.
quote:
ms ominous. Even the lightning hitting St. Peter's when the previous Pope resigned. And that's just specific to Francis. The papacy itself is easily identified with the Latin Vicarivs Filii Dei whose Roman numerals add up to 666. This is the only derivation of that number I've seen that is at all convincing, coming as it does within the phrase itself that actually defines the Antichrist, that it is in the language of Rome too, the seat of the Antichrist so designated.
It shouldn’t be convincing. The Number is supposed to refer to a name, not a title and picking out Roman numerals and adding them up is a highly questionable procedure - it ignores most of the letters and the usual way of writing numbers with Roman numerals for a start. Your conviction seems to have very little to do with the argument.
As I said in my previous post, End a Times prophecy is a mess. The various prophecies do not agree, and Jeffress’s reading is strained at best.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Faith, posted 02-12-2020 2:30 AM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 54 of 330 (871780)
02-12-2020 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Faith
02-12-2020 2:30 AM


Re: If Francis is The Antichrist, then the Great Tribulationi is just around the corner
So let’s take a more serious look.
Let us start with the only clear reference to the Rapture - 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
That seems pretty clear that the Rapture follows the Second Coming - which comes after the Tribulation Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
The Revelation is a bit of a problem here since 1 Thessalonians has all the dead Christians resurrected in the Rapture while the Revelation has no general resurrection of Christians until after the Millennium.
Revelation 20 4:6
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
So we have explicit statements here. Jefress offers none that support his claims - only questionable interpretations. Surely this is the opposite of what Biblical inerrantists are supposed to believe. should they not say that Jefress’ interpretations are wrong because they contradict what the Bible clearly says ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Faith, posted 02-12-2020 2:30 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by Faith, posted 02-13-2020 11:00 AM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 56 of 330 (871788)
02-12-2020 2:46 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Faith
02-12-2020 2:38 PM


Re: The Antichrist of the Great Tribulation
So you’re asserting that the AntiChrist claims to serve Jesus ? Where do you get that from ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Faith, posted 02-12-2020 2:38 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by Faith, posted 02-12-2020 2:55 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 59 of 330 (871791)
02-12-2020 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Faith
02-12-2020 2:55 PM


Re: The Antichrist of the Great Tribulation
quote:
Though the Pope claims to serve Jesus now...
It’s not just what the Pope says it’s what the title means - and you call it the title of the AntiChrist - but AntiChrist means against Christ.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Faith, posted 02-12-2020 2:55 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Faith, posted 02-12-2020 3:19 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 64 of 330 (871796)
02-12-2020 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Faith
02-12-2020 3:19 PM


Re: The Antichrist of the Great Tribulation
quote:
"Antichrist" means both against Christ and usurper of Christ.
Vicarius means neither against nor usurper (not that anti means usurper). It’s related to vice as in Vice President. Dies that title mean that Mike Pence is against or the usurper of Donald Trump?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Faith, posted 02-12-2020 3:19 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Faith, posted 02-12-2020 3:34 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 66 of 330 (871798)
02-12-2020 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by Faith
02-12-2020 3:34 PM


Re: The Antichrist of the Great Tribulation
quote:
I've been taught for years that the Greek for "anti" implies both "against" and "in the place of."
In context AntiChrist pretty clearly means against Christ. How could it possibly mean a Vice Christ (in the same sense as Vice President)?
quote:
I am pointing out that the various descriptions and titles of the Pope make him a usurper.
You are asserting it but it certainly is not true. A vicarius is not a usurper - the very title denies it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Faith, posted 02-12-2020 3:34 PM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 68 of 330 (871800)
02-12-2020 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Faith
02-12-2020 3:55 PM


Re: The Antichrist of the Great Tribulation
quote:
Where would I get such "hatred" if not from learning about what the RCC teaches?
Obviously from the anti-Catholic propaganda you so love. Except when it’s not vicious enough.
It’s just one of the ways your evil shows itself.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Faith, posted 02-12-2020 3:55 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by Faith, posted 02-12-2020 4:16 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 71 of 330 (871803)
02-12-2020 4:34 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by Faith
02-12-2020 4:16 PM


Re: The Antichrist of the Great Tribulation
And complaining about ad hominem is one of your convenient excuses for dismissing the truth.
The fact is that you actually did complain that today’s anti-Catholic propaganda wasn’t vicious enough.
You don’t have a good understanding of Catholic teaching.
You do love hate and lies. We all know it, and you aren’t exactly shy about showing it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Faith, posted 02-12-2020 4:16 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by Faith, posted 02-12-2020 5:31 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 79 of 330 (871813)
02-13-2020 12:12 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by Faith
02-12-2020 5:46 PM


Re: The Antichrist of the Great Tribulation
quote:
Funny, you remind me very strongly of the House Democrats making it all up against Trump while what he said was clear enough and true.
In other words he’s telling the truth and opposing your lies.
Your belief in the power of lies is one of the things that convinces me of your dedication to Satan.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Faith, posted 02-12-2020 5:46 PM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 80 of 330 (871814)
02-13-2020 12:15 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by Faith
02-12-2020 5:31 PM


Re: The Antichrist of the Great Tribulation
quote:
Please quote me if you are going to accuse me of saying something
It was a while ago, it would take a lot of effort to find and you’ll just ignore it anyway. So why should I bother.?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Faith, posted 02-12-2020 5:31 PM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 81 of 330 (871815)
02-13-2020 12:26 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by Faith
02-12-2020 6:12 PM


Re: The Antichrist of the Great Tribulation
quote:
As a side point, some Protestant historians regard Islam as the other leg of the Roman Empire. You know that statue Nebuchadnezzare dereamed of in the Book of Daniel? The one Daniel interpreted in terms of succeeding empires with Babylonia as the head, and the Roman Empire as the legs and feet? Two legs of the Roman Empire, Catholism one of them, Islam the other
That’s a pretty bizarre view, given that Islam never supported the Roman Empire. If you are going to insist on a reference to Romans and you are going to insist that the two legs are significant why not the Orthodox Church for the Eastern Empire ? (It’s all daft anyway because Daniel was not referring to Rome and didn’t make anything of the legs).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Faith, posted 02-12-2020 6:12 PM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 86 of 330 (871822)
02-13-2020 9:28 AM
Reply to: Message 85 by Faith
02-13-2020 9:20 AM


Re: Why the Pre-Trib Rapture?
This is just a collection of questionable interpretations that ignores the most relevant scripture (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17) See Message 54 in this thread.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Faith, posted 02-13-2020 9:20 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by Faith, posted 02-13-2020 9:33 AM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 88 of 330 (871824)
02-13-2020 9:41 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by Faith
02-13-2020 9:33 AM


Re: Why the Pre-Trib Rapture?
The main point is the obvious one - 1 Thessalonians says that the Rapture will follow the Second Coming - which comes after the Tribulation (I trust that you will not deny that!)
Perhaps you can explain why you think that any member of the Church of Philadelphia around 100AD would need to be Raptured to escape the Tribulation, or why Revelation 3:11 does not imply that the members are supposed to hold out until Jesus returns.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Faith, posted 02-13-2020 9:33 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by Faith, posted 02-13-2020 10:12 AM PaulK has replied
 Message 90 by Faith, posted 02-13-2020 10:23 AM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 91 of 330 (871828)
02-13-2020 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by Faith
02-13-2020 10:12 AM


Re: Why the Pre-Trib Rapture?
quote:
The whole reason I wrote my previous post was to say that I don't feel able to sort all these things out, so I do my best to get a feel for the different scenarios and then trust the teachers who argue for the one that makes the most sense to me, and that's the Pre Trib Rapture. But as I said some of the scriptures remain difficult to incorporate, or for me to do that in any case.
That’s sort of sad. And not very Protestant. The Bible might as well have stayed in Latin as far as you’re concerned.
quote:
This can be interpreted as some do as the Church's rising to meet the Lord in the air in order to escort Him to earth, the way the people would run out to meet a King returning from a journey and escort him into the city. That is the post Trib Rapture theory.
Or it can be interpreted as Jesus gathering his people as in Mark 13:27. Really why wouldn’t you read it in the light of the Gospels?
quote:
OR it can be interpreted as referring to our meeting Him in the air to be taken to heaven to be with Him for seven years before He returns to Earth with all of us following Him, which is the Pre Trib interpretation.
But why assume an additional event where Jesus sort of comes back but nobody left on Earth can see it? This interpretation seems to be motivated solely by a need to deny the obvious reading - presumably because that reading puts the Rapture after the Tribulation.
quote:
I've given my reasons for preferring this view.
Because you like Robert Jefress even though his arguments are very, very weak.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Faith, posted 02-13-2020 10:12 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by Faith, posted 02-13-2020 11:31 AM PaulK has replied

  
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