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Author Topic:   Biblical Support for the Pre-Tribulation Rapture
PaulK
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Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 92 of 330 (871829)
02-13-2020 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by Faith
02-13-2020 10:23 AM


Re: Why the Pre-Trib Rapture?
But they were spared the trial without being Raptured. And no, reinterpreting prophecies meant for other people as being meant for you is not a valid reading.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Faith, posted 02-13-2020 10:23 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by Faith, posted 02-13-2020 11:03 AM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
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Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 100 of 330 (871840)
02-13-2020 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by Faith
02-13-2020 11:00 AM


Re: If Francis is The Antichrist, then the Great Tribulationi is just around the corner
quote:
As I say in the previous post you can interpret the Thessalonians passage to refer to the final return of Christ, but the Pre Trib people interpret it to refer to the Rapture of the Church seven years before the final return of Christ.
But why would you do so, other than to make it fit the pre-trib rapture?
quote:
"But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years wer finished." These are not believers
In other words only them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, can be believers. Really ?
quote:
But you are the one who made the mistake of calling them "Christians" who are resurrected AFTER the millennium, but they are the unbeleivers, not Christians. jeffress doesn't address the resurrection in any case, he's only addressing the timing of the Rapture and the Tribulation.
I don’t think it’s a mistake to say that there have been believers who died of natural causes or accident. Why do you disagree?
And since the resurrection is a part of the Rapture Jefress’ failure to address it is a weakness in his argument,
Your interpretation of Daniel I need not address except to point out that the End Times of Daniel occur while the Diadochi Kingdoms are the do,I ant power in the Middle East - and that the whole notion of a gap has no justification in the text of Daniel at all. Indeed the idea that there is a completely unmentioned pause longer than the entire timeline is more than a little ridiculous.

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 Message 93 by Faith, posted 02-13-2020 11:00 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by Faith, posted 02-13-2020 12:08 PM PaulK has replied
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 102 of 330 (871842)
02-13-2020 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by Faith
02-13-2020 11:31 AM


Re: Why the Pre-Trib Rapture?
quote:
Why? Relying on the teachers God gave us is the right thing to do since we aren't all gifted at Biblical interpretation. I did my best to sort through the arguments well enough to settle on the one most persuasive to me, and there's nothing wrong with that. If something clearer comes along I hope I will be alert to it.
Because worshipping false teachers is a great idea ? Jefress’ arguments don’t show any special skill. Or even understanding. They convince you but that’s clearly not for any sensible reason.
quote:
Sorry, you lost me completely. I thought the point was to show where the Rapture of the Church fits in, the rising to meet Christ in the air.
The point is to interpret Scripture in the light of Scripture. If Mark (and Matthew) say something very similar to Paul why should they not be talking about the same thing ?
quote:
Because other parts of scripture require it.
It’s funny then that you would use questionable interpretations instead of those then. The claim that you have good arguments that you aren’t using is not exactly plausible.
quote:
.
The only motivation I'm aware of is the effort to put it all together as a whole that hangs together, not to "deny" anything unless it doesn't hang together with the main scriptural indications.
Which suggests that Jefress is incompetent since his interpretation makes things worse, not better.
quote:
I never even heard of Robert Jeffress before this radio presentation, but I thought his presentation was a lot more coherent than many I've heard on this subject, and I especially appreciate his list of four reasons why he supports the Pre Trib scenario, which he gives at the very end of the podcast. So in my experience his argument is very strong, not at all weak
It is a fact that Jefress’ arguments are all questionable inferences and therefore weak. That they convince you speaks more of your desire to believe the pre-trib rapture.

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 Message 96 by Faith, posted 02-13-2020 11:31 AM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
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Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 105 of 330 (871845)
02-13-2020 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by Faith
02-13-2020 11:03 AM


Re: Why the Pre-Trib Rapture?
quote:
Remember, at the Rapture, "the dead in Christ rise first," and that includes members of the Church at Philadelphia.
Which is no objection since if there is no pre-trib Rapture they stay dead and safe from the Tribulation. Or are you really going to invent another resurrection just to protect Jefress’ argument ?
And I should repeat that - according to the Revelation - only those who were martyred rise before the Millennium. But that exclusion is not present in 1 Thessalonians 4.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Faith, posted 02-13-2020 11:03 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by Faith, posted 02-13-2020 8:09 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 106 of 330 (871846)
02-13-2020 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by Faith
02-13-2020 12:08 PM


Re: If Francis is The Antichrist, then the Great Tribulationi is just around the corner
quote:
Well, of course, if the preponderance of scripture is adding up to that interpretation, then other verses that are more ambiguous are then interpreted to support it. Of course. What else would one do? If you don't do that you will never have a whole picture at all.
If the preponderance of scripture added up to that then yes. But it obviously does not. You don’t have one clear reference to a pre-trib rapture at all.
quote:
Since you don't quote enough to remind me of the context I don't know what you are referring to, but "the rest of the dead" that rise after the Millennium are unbelievers.
That’s what you say. It isn’t what the Bible says. You know, you could just go back a few posts and read the quote there. It is clear that those raised in the first resurrection are:
them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands - and that’s the complete description.
quote:
I see you are keeping up this line to the end without giving any further references to help me out so I have nothing to add.
Why would I need further references to explain text I have already given ? You have the reference. You just didn’t read it.
quote:
And yes I remember your interpretation of Daniel and it's ridiculous.
Because agreeing with the text over your dogma is ridiculous ?
I’m not sweeping parts of the prophecy under the carpet. I’m not the one inventing gaps four times as long as the timeline given. That’s all from your side.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by Faith, posted 02-13-2020 12:08 PM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 110 of 330 (871855)
02-13-2020 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Faith
02-12-2020 2:30 AM


Re: If Francis is The Antichrist, then the Great Tribulationi is just around the corner
Let’s consider Jeffress four reasons:
quote:
The Tribulation has two purposes, the first is to save a multitude of Jews and Gentiles who resisted salvation up to this point and have to be saved the hard way. The multitude is pictured in Revelation 7 standing before the throne of God waving palm branches. The second purpose is to pour out God's judgments on the unbelieving world, which judgments are depicted in various ways in the Book of Revelation.
It is simply assumption that the multitude do not include the Church. There is no citation of scripture to argue otherwise, or even support the idea that the Tribulation was intended to convert.
This is NOT a reason to believe in a pre-Tribulation Rapture.
quote:
The Tribulation has two purposes, the first is to save a multitude of Jews and Gentiles who resisted salvation up to this point and have to be saved the hard way. The multitude is pictured in Revelation 7 standing before the throne of God waving palm branches. The second purpose is to pour out God's judgments on the unbelieving world, which judgments are depicted in various ways in the Book of Revelation.
This is essentially a repeat of the first. There are possible references to the Church - not only the multitude but those who keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. in Revelation 12:17
This is not a reason to believe in a pre-Tribulation Rapture
quote:
In Revelation 3 the Church at Philadelphia is promised by Christ to be "kept from the trial that is to come upon all the Earth" if they change their ways and become obedient to Him.
If they do NOT change their ways.
But this is a promise to one Church. None of those given this promise is in any danger of the Tribulation. And surely God has other options than the Rapture.
This is not as bad as the first two points. But it is still very weak
quote:
Romans 8:1 says that believers are not appointed to God's wrath, "there is no condemnation" to those who are in Christ. We are to undergo persecution and tribulation in this life, of course, but the Great Tribulation is The Day of the Lord, when He sends judgment on the entire Earth, and that is what believers are saved from. Jesus took the wrath of God on the cross and if we are in Him we are saved from that wrath ourselves. (If God shortens the tribulation before it kills everybody, that doesn't mean He's going to shorten the period of seven years, but I haven't studied this point.)
Even if God's judgement is not directed at Christians it does not mean that they will be moved out of the way. Even for the Tribulation. Indeed the shortening for the sake of the Elect suggests that God protects believers in that way.
So, again, this is just a questionable interpretation.
So, out of four supposed reasons you only have two, both very weak, based on a few verses. That is not a preponderance of scripture

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Faith, posted 02-12-2020 2:30 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by Faith, posted 02-13-2020 8:50 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 119 of 330 (871868)
02-14-2020 12:11 AM
Reply to: Message 117 by Faith
02-13-2020 8:09 PM


Re: Why the Pre-Trib Rapture?
quote:
You make a lot of assertions without any evidence to support them so I can't answer
Not in that post.
I make two points.
The first is a simple matter of logic.
The second has already been shown in previous messages.
Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.

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 Message 117 by Faith, posted 02-13-2020 8:09 PM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 120 of 330 (871869)
02-14-2020 12:21 AM
Reply to: Message 118 by Faith
02-13-2020 8:50 PM


Re: If Francis is The Antichrist, then the Great Tribulationi is just around the corner
quote:
You seem to have copied out Jeffress' first reason he believes in the Pre Trib Rapture twice and mistaken the second for his second.
Only half right. I did mess up the quotes but the answer applies to the correct quote. The second reason is essentially the same as the first.
quote:
So the second point which you mistook for a repeat of the first point, is really the fact that the Church is not mentioned at all between Revelation 6 and 18
It is not a fact, as I pointed out.
quote:
which fits with the idea that the Church Age is a long gap between the 69th and 70th weeks of the prophecy of Daniel.
Not really - and the idea is pretty crazy anyway.
quote:
This IS a good reason to believe in the Pre-Tribulation Rapture. As are the other reasons he gives, especially the promise to the Church of Philadelphia to save them from the great trial to come upon the earth if they keep His word, and the fact given in Romans 8:1 that believers are now not under condemnation because Christ took God's wrath upon Himself that we deserved.
I’ve already shown that those claims are false.
quote:
It is not exactly "assumed" that the multitudes do not include the Church. It has been concluded from other scriptural references that the Church has been taken off the earth before these events and is not going to go through the Tribulation.
In other words you claim that the first reason is good because you have a better reason that wasn’t mentioned. That is obviously pretty silly. Why not use that reason instead?
quote:
I think the evidence that the Tribulation was intended to convert is in the existence of that multitude itself in the Book of Revelation, which we understand to be a different group from the Church because of the other scripture references that show the Rapture of the Church before the events of the Tribulation.
But you haven’t produced any scriptures which show that. Why not? Why rely on weak arguments when you claim you have better ones?
quote:
The other references include the understanding of Daniel's seventy weeks as split between the sixty-ninth and seventieth weeks, between which is the Church Age.
Ideas invented to reinterpret inconvenient scripture are not themselves scripture. So obviously you can’t include that.

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 Message 118 by Faith, posted 02-13-2020 8:50 PM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 125 of 330 (871878)
02-14-2020 8:17 AM
Reply to: Message 124 by Faith
02-14-2020 6:13 AM


Re: Another List of Reasons for the Pre Trib Rapture
Funny how someone who claims to have good reasons would suddenly introduce another list of bad ones.
Reason 1 just introduces a couple more verses to an existing argument without dealing with the problems. There’s nothing to say that Christians will be Raptured away while the judgement is going on, even if they aren’t themselves targeted. (Indeed, you say that the American Civil War was an example of God’s judgement but if so, it is hard to say even that Christians weren’t targeted by that)
Reason 2 is a repeat. Do you really think that God has to Rapture all Christians to protect a small group of people who aren’t even in danger?
Reason 3 is a repeat of the Church Age argument, which I have already addressed.
Reason 4 is just another questionable interpretation. Luke 21:36 is more naturally read as meaning to pray to live through the events.
Reason 5 is really bad. It doesn’t even suggest that the Rapture has already happened. It does not specify that only the dead saints should be judged - just the dead (and if the saints have been resurrected in the Rapture how can they be dead? Obviously they have not yet been resurrected). Indeed the last line indicates that everyone is being judged - living and dead.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by Faith, posted 02-14-2020 6:13 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by jar, posted 02-14-2020 8:45 AM PaulK has not replied
 Message 128 by Faith, posted 02-14-2020 11:14 AM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 129 of 330 (871888)
02-14-2020 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by Faith
02-14-2020 11:14 AM


Re: Another List of Reasons for the Pre Trib Rapture
quote:
No idea where you get the idea that the Rapture happens during the judgment. It's PRE-Tribution, it inaugurates the judgment.
Nit-picking. Even if Christians aren’t judged that doesn’t mean that they will be Raptured away.
quote:
There are no problems that I know of. It's one of the points Jeffress also makes, but what I like about this source is that he adds more scripture. Both 1 Thessalonians 5:9 and Romans 5:9 say that Christians are not appointed to wrath but to salvation through Christ, the point being that Jesus Christ took God's wrath FOR us.
Oh great, a couple more verses that only repeat a weak point and do nothing to address the weakness. It’s not much.
quote:
It's God's wrath we are saved from, not earthly or human-caused tribulations like the Civil War. Christians have to go through a lot of those. Sure it's all God's judgment in a sense, as all calamities are, but the Great Tribulation is largely destruction of the natural world by "natural" causes -- and sometimes supernatural -- not manmade. Maybe the best comparison is the Flood of Noah.
And those Judgements are instances of God’s wrath. Christians are not immune to being affected by them even if God’s anger is directed at others.
quote:
No idea what you are talking about.
Then you don’t understand your reason.
quote:
Guess I missed it. But this source elaborates about the situation of the Jews.
Which isn’t relevant. The fact that The whole idea of a massive gap is a silly invention and doesn’t give any reason to think that the Church will disappear is relevant.
quote:
It's always understood to mean praying to be worthy to escape them completely.
I very much doubt that that is the case. You may read it that way, but as I said the natural reading is to live through them, avoiding the worst by running to the mountains as Luke 21:21 advises.
ABE the following is redundant since you have deleted the assertion.
quote:
Why should it since it hasn't happened.
Revelation 11:18 follows the blowing of the Seventh Trumpet (Revelation 11:15) so at that point the Tribulation is well under way.
Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by Faith, posted 02-14-2020 11:14 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by Faith, posted 02-14-2020 11:54 AM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 133 of 330 (871895)
02-14-2020 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by Faith
02-14-2020 11:54 AM


Re: Another List of Reasons for the Pre Trib Rapture
quote:
The natural reading of Luke 21-36 is ESCAPE, not live through. "Escape" is the word used
But their meanings are not contradictory. And why can’t you escape by running to the mountains ?
quote:
You don't givew the context of the Seventh Trumpet comment
Yes I do. It’s your deleted comment that the Rapture had not occurred at the point of Revelation 11:18. Since that point follows the blowing of the seventh trumpet it must be after the Tribulation has begun. So a pre-Tribulation Rapture would have had to have happened before then, and the dead saints would have been resurrected.
Yet, As I remind you, Revelatiion 20 4:5 says the the first resurrection - of the martyrs - occurs just prior to the Millennium and the remaining Christians must wait until after that. How is this consistent with a mass resurrection of Christians before the Tribulation?
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by Faith, posted 02-14-2020 11:54 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by Faith, posted 02-14-2020 12:24 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 135 of 330 (871897)
02-14-2020 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by Faith
02-14-2020 12:24 PM


Re: Another List of Reasons for the Pre Trib Rapture
quote:
Hard to avoid a worldwide catastrophe by running to the mountains.
You should read Luke 21. It very much indicates that the worst is in Judaea and around Jerusalem and explicitly advises fleeing to the mountains.
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by Faith, posted 02-14-2020 12:24 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by Faith, posted 02-14-2020 8:38 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 137 of 330 (871906)
02-15-2020 2:36 AM
Reply to: Message 136 by Faith
02-14-2020 8:38 PM


Re: Luke 21:36 Escape Means Rapture
quote:
Luke 21 is Luke's version of what is known as the Olivet Discourse, which is given in Matthew and Mark as well
With some significant rewriting of it.
quote:
This is where Jesus teaches the disciples about the very last days. It starts out with a prophecy of the fall of Jerusalem and the temple in 70 AD and then the scene shifts to the end times, when calamity is to come upon the whole world.
The Tribulation IS the fall of Jerusalem as is quite clear if you compare it with Mark (or Matthew - those two are almost identical). Mark and Matthew do NOT have a shift in time either - that is one of the important changes.
quote:
This is understood to refer to the Day of the Lord or the Great Tribulation we are talking about in this thread, and Luke 21:36 tells us to pray to to be worthy to escape that worldwide calamity. And those who teach the Pre-Tribulation Rapture take it to mean we want to be worthy to be in the rapture before the Tribulation begins.
Nope. It is a little clearer in Mark - in that Mark actually mentions the word tribulation but the time jump is to the Second Coming in verse 27.
Luke 21
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
quote:
The switch occurs in the second half of Luke 21:24 about the "times of the Gentiles," how Jerusalem will be given over to the Gentiles until "the times of the Gentiles are finished." And the passage goes on to describe signs in the heavens and the coming of the Son of Man.
Well, exactly - the jump is to events AFTER the Tribulation. That pretty much kills your whole argument.
quote:
We are clearly in a time long future to the calamity of 70AD...
The shift in time is not that great. All the events - all of them - must complete within a generation (21:32). Revelation 11:2 suggests that the gap will be only 42 months.
quote:
...when escape can't be a matter of fleeing to the mountains because the entire world is to be in tribulation.
You are suggesting a post-Tribulation Rapture to escape the Second Coming. (The advice to run to the mountains does refer to the actual Tribulation - which you have put in 70AD. I don’t think that the Rapture happened before then.)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by Faith, posted 02-14-2020 8:38 PM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 140 of 330 (871911)
02-16-2020 9:56 AM
Reply to: Message 139 by Faith
02-16-2020 9:27 AM


Re: Hodgepodge answer to GDR & PK
quote:
The only way I can answer PaulK is to say that you can't just read a passage of such complex prophecy as Luke 21 as if it's chronological, it has to be read in the context of all the other passages on the same subject, and although Luke 21 leaps to the context of the Second Coming that doesn't rule out a Pre-Tribulation Rapture seven years prior because the Rapture is in essence part of the Second Coming: once it occurs you know the Second Coming is seven years future.
Luke 21 is not that complex. And it is easy to see where it is not chronological. It is probably much better to read it alongside the original - or at least earlier - version in Mark 13 (which the author of Luke had access to) because the rewriting obscures some points.
But - as usual - you don’t deal with my actual points. I am not even claiming that Luke 21 rules out a pre-Tribulation Rapture, only that it does not support it.
quote:
The Tribulation is described in many different places that make it clear it's the Day of the Lord that has been prophesied throughout the Old Testament to be a period of God's wrath on the earth no one will be able to withstand. And it certainly does precede the Second Coming so there's nothing out of order abourt that, then when in 21:36 we are admonished to pray that we will be worthy to escape the outpouring of wrath, it's talking about escaping it before it happens of course, and since it's a worldwide tribulation escape by being taken to heaven is a strong possibility
However, escaping by taking actions on Earth is clearly present in the text - in the part that actually covers the Tribulation (as I pointed out) There is no equivalent mention of escaping by being absent from the Earth. Speculations unsupported by the text are not great evidence and you are going against the natural reading of 1 Thessalonians and contradicting Revelation 20.
quote:
That possibility is confirmed by other scriptures. Few Bible verses or even whole passages stand alone, and those from which the Pre Trib Rapture is deduced are scattered and often ambiguous. It takes more study than I'm up to and when I've tried I quickly get bogged down in the ambiguities and give up.
More accurately the Rapture is read into verses which are open to other - and often better - interpretations. Which means that it is not really true to say that there is confirming scripture.
Especially as Revelation 20:4-6 contradicts a pre-Tribulation Rapture.
Here is is again:
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
The FIRST resurrection - of Christian martyrs - immediately precedes the Millenium. There will be no general resurrection of Christians until after the Millenium. Since the Rapture includes a general resurrection of Christians it would have to be after the Millenium unless the Revelatiion is wrong.
quote:
I've been listening lately to John MacArthur's preachings on the subject, and he makes use of the same scriptures Jeffress and others do, which just keeps piling on the evidence for it.
More accurately it confirms that there is no good evidence for the pre-Tribulation Rapture. Who would use such hopelessly weak arguments if there was a good case for it ?
quote:
I'll post a video or two of his though it may be too much for people to watch through.
If he has good arguments why not write them out? If he doesn’t - as seems very likely - watching the video is a waste of time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by Faith, posted 02-16-2020 9:27 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by Faith, posted 02-16-2020 1:10 PM PaulK has replied
 Message 144 by Faith, posted 02-16-2020 1:37 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 143 of 330 (871930)
02-16-2020 1:36 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by Faith
02-16-2020 1:10 PM


Re: Hodgepodge answer to GDR & PK
quote:
No, that is where Jesus is talking about the coming destruction of the temple and Jerusalem, from which He tells them to flee to the mountains
Which is the Tribulation. You don’t see it because Luke’s rewrite added in a gap between the Tribulation and the Second Coming and you have magnified that gap to around 2000 years to try and fit the text to your beliefs. Even though Luke tells us that the gap can’t be anywhere near that long, as I already pointed out,
In reality the Oliver Discourse is primarily about the destruction of Herod’s Temple. The Disciples ask Jesus to tell them when the Temple will be destroyed and Jesus tells them - the idea that he suddenly started talking about something completely unrelated is not justified by anything in the text. It comes from the reality that the Temple was destroyed and the end did not come. But that’s not a valid reason to rewrite the text.
quote:
The other accounts are in Mark 13 and Matthew 24-25. They are all to be read together to get a fuller picture.
A shame that you didn’t do that, then. I have. That’s how you can see that the fall of Jerusalem is the Tribulation - because the parallel verses in Mark are rather clearer on the subject. And I can tell you that Matthew’s version is pretty much redundant. It’s basically a copy of Mark’s.
quote:
The fuller talk of which the one I posted is just a part is titled "The Final Generation" in which MacArthur discussed Mark 13 (and says "this generation" clearly refers to the generation which will be alive at the time of the events Jesus prophesies.)
That is certainly false - it is not at all clear. Indeed there are pointers in the text that quite strongly suggest otherwise. However, even if that is the meaning it means all the events must occur in the span of a single generation So, no. A span of close to 2000 years is right out.
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Oh, yes of course, PaulK, you know much better than John MacArthur what the Bible says.
I certainly know better than you.
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Nevertheless he does represent the many preachers and theologians who argue the Pre Trib Rapture from the scriptures
And we’ve seen those arguments and they are weak. Are you ever going to deal with Revelation 20:4-6 - apart from ignoring verse 4 and insisting on your own ideas instead ?
Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by Faith, posted 02-16-2020 1:10 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by Faith, posted 02-16-2020 1:39 PM PaulK has replied

  
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