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Author | Topic: I Know That God Does Not Exist | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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SB writes: Is the concept of a deity a rational thing? The concept of a deity is rational if it can be supported by rational argument. If the concept of a deity is merely a personal belief it becomes irrational. In my view (as an atheist) there are perfectly respectable and rational arguments for deities. But there are far better philosophical arguments for the non-existence of theistic gods and most - if not all - have been disproven by actual evidence or simply disappeared from our cultures. But I'm happy to allow that my personal disbelief in even a deistic, non-interventionary god is at least, in part, non-rational. That kind of god can not be totally disproven.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
SB writes: But can it be supported by rational argument? Yes of course, there's a wide body of perfectly respectable philosophical argument for the existence of a deity.
quote: Existence of God - Wikipedia But the existence of rational arguments for something doesn't make that something true - there are at least as many rational arguments concluding the opposite. And of course none of the arguments support a theistic god. If, by using logic alone, you think that you can show the existence of a god, you've still got all your work ahead of you to show that it's the theistic god that YOU believe in. And if you could do it without logic ie empirically, we'd all believe. Or more accurately, we wouldn't need to believe; it would be a fact like the existence of electricity.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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SB writes: But the point is that the arguments aren't rational You have yet to demonstrate that, simply saying that they aren,t rational doesn't make them so.
they are all pure wish-fulfillment or a vague sort of "How could all this wondrous etc. etc. etc. without a designer?" It's emotional, not logical. You're calling some of the greatest philosophers of all time irrational; that isn't rational. Of course many of the arguments *are* rational, they just happen to be wrong. In my opinion.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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Phat writes: He most definitely is not a relativistic individuated subjective concept. To coin a phrase what does that even mean? Anything at all?
Meeting Someone. This would be the day you got an autograph from him and he may have even spent a minute shooting a hoop or two with you. You caught a glimpse of his humanity one on one. This is what believers claim happens when they get born again. Critics say it is exclusivist, fantasy-driven, and unevidenced. So be it. We believe we have met the Creator of all seen and unseen through his human Character of Jesus Christ Who we believe is alive eternally and knowable in the present through the comforter known as The Holy Spirit. We believe that when people become aware of this presence they have essentially "met God." And we say you're deluded.
Level 3 is internalizing the Holy Communion and decreasing (your own ego and selfishness) while allowing the Holy Spirit to increase within you. Which is total gibberish. Words without meaning. Typical preacherish tosh. You thrive on this kind of ridiculous verbiage. I reckon it's to avoid thinking.
You obviously will again call it a made up belief. From now on I think I'll call it a relativistic individuated subjective concept.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Sarah Bellum writes: But surely there had to be some who thought up the idea first? Sure but it's developmental, simple ideas become more elaborate as tails are told. Christianity formed from Judeism. Islam from both. Splits and schisms create varieties - Sunnies and Shi'ites, Catholics and Protestants, Orthodox and non-Orthodox But also sometimes religions are made up entirely by a single individual - Mormonism, Scientology. It's evolution combined with special creation.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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Sarah Bellum writes: It's tough to stake out the position that there is no evidence for a deity in the face of statements that some of the great philosophers of the past have thought there was a deity. It's a methodological difference. Philosophy can be rational but still be wrong. Philosophy believes that it can sit in a chair and think an answer; science requires evidence to form a conclusion but there is none. Philosophers have tried to prove or disprove god/s for thousands of years, all they have achieved are rational arguments for and against. A proof or conclusion is not possible. Science too can not disprove a deistic, non-interventionist god because there is nothing to observe or test. It can disprove all the theistic beliefs of the religious - hence all the complaints about Darwin and geology and astronomy etc etc. It might even get to a point of being able to show how a universe can create itself making the traditional religious ideas of primitive gods redundant. But it can never take that last step of saying therefore, there is no god.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Phat writes: I have absolutely no problem with a Universe that began due to the Will of a Creator. Hawking did and ringo does. Hawking did not believe that the universe had a creator, he was an atheist. Why do you just keep on making up stuff that seems to suit you? Why not at least check?
quote: Stephen Hawking Was an Atheist: His Words on Death and God | TimeJe suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
ICANT writes: Sure he believed in a creator. He just called it an instanton. Hawking was an atheist and did not believe in a creator. I gave you his own words, don't twist them, it's not Christian.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
You always get hold of the wrong end of every stick....
My comments have nothing to do with any of that, I'm simply pointing out that Hawking was an atheist, he therefore did not believe in a creator and his work demonstrated to him that a creator is not necessary. ICANT wants to claim Hawking for his side
ICANT writes: Sure he believed in a creator. He just called it an instanton. Hawking was not on your or ICANT's side of this discussion, to say otherwise is to lie.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
ICANT writes: According to the Standard theory the universe had to have a beginning to exist. Hawking believed that the universe could create itself. Why are you Christians so damned dishonest? Just read what he himself says. He was an atheist.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
ICANT writes: So he believed in creation and a creator even though it was his instanton. He was an atheist. Atheists do not believe in creators. That’s it. The rest of the garbage is yours aloneJe suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Phat writes: No, he believed in science and in the ability of the human mind to figure out its own answers. How is this different from assuming that Humans are our own Creators in the sense that it is we who decide our destiny? Humans obviously ARE our own creators but only in the obvious sense. What has creating our own destiny got to do with 'Creation'.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Phat writes: Because we become the decisions that we make. I'll try again. What has that got to do with (the) creation?
You claim that it is a harmful teaching to follow Christ. Do I? Are you sure? Or are you - yet again - talking shite? Have you never seen me say that 'do as you would be done by', and 'love thy neighbour' aren't good ways to live your life?
Look at this Bible Study No.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
ICANT writes: Didn't he say that he had proved (with his instanton) that there was no need for a God. You can't create something without a creator. He, and others, say that the universe can create itself.
Everyone is trying to get away from a creator. Scientists are trying to understand how theuniverse works.
Problem is anyone who does not believe the universe is eternal in existence believes in creation by some method. Even You. No they don't. And additionally, you are conflating creation, with 'The Creation'.
I have hundreds of posts where I mention Hawking and I never once said he believed in God. I wish he had for his sake. Phat said it and you backed him Up.
Phat writes: I have absolutely no problem with a Universe that began due to the Will of a Creator. Hawking did and ringo does. This is how you guys operate. You deliberately twist scientific findings so that your hangers on get the wrong message. It's dishonest. Here you are again.
ICANT writes: I have said he believed in a creator. He did not believe in 'a creator'. 'A creator' is not 'The Creator'. You are simply obfuscating, implying things that he does not believe. Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Phat writes: I never said that Hawking believed in a Creator. I said that Hawking had a problem with it. Learn to read. Ok, my apologies, I read that a different way.But good. Which is more bollux than anything you will find in the Bible. Even esteemed physics geniuses can be as wrong as any creationist. No. Esteemed physicists can be wrong, in which case others will correct their mistakes. Creationists are just wrong.
Do you believe that at one point in the past, perhaps at ICANTS imaginary (T=0) space where the maths break down that there was NOTHING? Or do you believe that there eternally was at least SOMETHING? I don't know or believe anything about those this. I don't even think that those terms have any meaning that we are able to even imagine.
And note one of my quotes in my signature: Your quote is silly. Atheists just don't believe in god. That's all you can say about them.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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