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Author Topic:   Biblical Support for the Pre-Tribulation Rapture
Tangle
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Posts: 7337
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 121 of 220 (871872)
02-14-2020 2:37 AM
Reply to: Message 115 by Faith
02-13-2020 6:17 PM


Re: Why the Pre-Trib Rapture?
Faith writes:

I'm "expecting" it any minute but also know I could be wrong and it could be far enough in the future that I'll die before it happens. A season could be a hundred years or so, but we are all feeling that it's very close and expecting it any minute.

Does it not bother you at all that people have been saying that for millennia? For you guys the end of the world has always been nigh. You see signs everywhere you look, it's completely bonkers.

Since I think he'll be possessed by Satan himself, he could even die and then "come back to life" through Satan's possession of his body.

You wouldn't be out of place in a middle ages witch hunt. You're batshit crazy.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by Faith, posted 02-13-2020 6:17 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by Faith, posted 02-14-2020 5:07 AM Tangle has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 34693
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 122 of 220 (871875)
02-14-2020 5:07 AM
Reply to: Message 121 by Tangle
02-14-2020 2:37 AM


Pre-Trib Rapture, Tribulation, Antichrist
I'm "expecting" it any minute but also know I could be wrong and it could be far enough in the future that I'll die before it happens. A season could be a hundred years or so, but we are all feeling that it's very close and expecting it any minute.

Does it not bother you at all that people have been saying that for millennia? For you guys the end of the world has always been nigh. You see signs everywhere you look, it's completely bonkers. [/qs]

You exaggerate but no it doesn't bother me at all because any sense of the world changing for the worse could cause Christians to think such thoughts. It keeps the issues alive. Eventually it has to happen. I certainly don't "see signs everywhere," but when I see them they matter a lot. The way the number 666 can be derived from a title of the Pope, otherwise known as the Bishop of Rome, written in Latin whose traditionally assigned numerals add up to that number was an exciting discovery. Of course. And by the way it was my nephew who called me up one day back in the nineties to tell me about it. I couldn't get any of my Christian friends to take it seriously but that didn't prevent me from seeing how amazingly telling it is. And then when Pope Francis was elected I forget where I got the information about the timing and the lightning and the seagull perched on the chimney of the Sistine Chapel, but all that too certainly has some kind of significance. That anyone should be able to see in my opinion. These are signs I myself have seen that so far I haven't found anyone else recognizing. I'm not bragging, I wish others would see them too. And maybe it will be nonChristians who get it first.

Luther didn't have any such signs as far as I know, he understood the Pope to be Antichrist from scripture that described the characteristics of the Antichrist he recognized as fitting the Pope, or the papacy in general. And Luther said nothing about the Rapture as far as I know, certainly not a Pre-Tribulation Rapture. I think all that may be fairly recent but I'm not up on the history of it.

And even the Christian leaders like Jeffress, and Jan Markell whose ministry is all about the end times, don't see the Pope as the Antichrist. This is my own thing, though I hope there are some others out there somewhere who agree with me about it. Cuz if it's the Pope it's a big waste of time to be looking for somebody else.

Since I think he'll be possessed by Satan himself, he could even die and then "come back to life" through Satan's possession of his body.

You wouldn't be out of place in a middle ages witch hunt. You're batshit crazy.

I believe the Bible, that's all. Batshit crazy would mean I'm having my own personal hallucinations or at least my own personal ideas about it but in fact I'm basing it all on the Bible's references to the fallen Archangel Satan, and to the demons that possess people described in the New Testament. It was the thread Buzsaw started a few years ago about some people actually being possessed by demons althought they were dead, the demon giving them "life," (see Message 1) that got me thinking maybe the Antichrist could actually be a dead man animated entirely by Satan. Some writers say the Antichirst will be possessed by Satan himself, but I put all this together and thought maybe he could be possessing a dead man. That's because Pope Francis is so old it's hard to imagine him surviving much longer, let alone the seven years of the Great Tribulation.

And again, taking off from the signs that were attached to Francis' election as Pope, I tentatively conclude that he is very likely to be the very last Pope who would in fact be THE Antichrist. His deviations from Christian theology that go even further than the deviations of previous Popes seem to qualify him for the job apart from those signs.

All this only matters because I feel the Lord nudging me to give information that might be of help to those going through the Tribulation. I may have little personal love for anyone here but the Lord seems to care about you all and I want to obey Him.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Tangle, posted 02-14-2020 2:37 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by Tangle, posted 02-14-2020 5:50 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7337
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 123 of 220 (871876)
02-14-2020 5:50 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by Faith
02-14-2020 5:07 AM


Re: Pre-Trib Rapture, Tribulation, Antichrist
Bonkers...

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Faith, posted 02-14-2020 5:07 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 34693
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 124 of 220 (871877)
02-14-2020 6:13 AM


Another List of Reasons for the Pre Trib Rapture
I wanted to find a source that spells out the scriptures used to arrive at the Pre Tribulation Rapture and maybe I'll yet find that, but all I found this time was something very similar to Jeffress' list of reasons he believes in this interpretation. I don't know anything about this source, but it was the only one I found that had such a list and they are good reasons. The third reason given is very important, about the absence of the Church during the Tribulation events but the focus here is on Israel:

REASON #1: Not Appointed to Wrath
The primary proof of a pre-Tribulation rapture, given by the “experts,” is this: we are raptured before the Tribulation begins because the Church is not appointed to wrath. Coincidentally, that truth is revealed in Chapter 5 verse 9 of TWO separate books of the Bible: Romans 5:9 and 1 Thess. 5:9. Please look these verses up for yourself, to lock them into your thinking.

REASON #2: Kept From the Hour of Trial
Jesus Himself told the Apostle John on the Isle of Patmos that we (the Philadelphia/faithful Church) will be kept from the hour of trial. “Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth” (Rev. 3:10). Notice also that the world is being tested. Furthermore, throughout the Book of Revelation the term “earth dwellers” always refers to unsaved people.

REASON #3: God and the Jews
The seven year Tribulation is specifically a time for God to work with the Jews. Both the Angel Gabriel and the Apostle Paul make that point. Let’s listen first to Gabriel, who is God’s chief messenger angel and speaks for God Himself (remember as we read that the Tribulation is called “Daniel’s seventieth week”). “Seventy weeks are determined for your people and for your holy city…” (Daniel 9:24)

The Church was NOT present during the first 69 weeks of Gabriel’s prophecy, and it will not be here during Daniel’s 70th week either. Gabriel specifically said it was a time frame for God to work with Daniel’s people (the Jews) and his holy city (Jerusalem).

Next, let’s listen to the great Apostle Paul. Remember, we are making the point that scripture teaches the 70th week is a time for God to deal with the Jews. “…blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved…” (Romans 11:25)

Here we see God’s plan. The final gentile is won to the Lord after we are caught away. After we disappear the blinders come off of eyes of the Jewish people.

I personally believe we are in the time of Israel’s “jealousy” right now. The Christians love the Jews, support them, and defend them, even though the Jews have no deep love for us. But their “jealousy” turns to “anger” when we are caught away. They will be angry that we have left them without friends on the earth. This is explained in Deuteronomy and Romans. Let’s read it in Romans 10:19: “I will provoke you [the Jews] to jealousy by those who are not a nation [the Church]. I will move you to anger by a foolish nation” [the Church].

The inevitable result is God’s chosen people will be forced to turn back to Him, as they will have no friends left after we are gone. We see that in the Book of Hosea. The last line in Hosea 5 says: “In their affliction [Tribulation, indignation] they will earnestly seek Me.”

It is unfortunate that it takes a series of catastrophic events to bring them to the Lord as a nation. Mike Bickle explains the situation like this: “God loves the Jews, but the Jews don’t love Him.”

REASON #4: Escape Doctrine
The rapture is our “escape doctrine.” Some scoffers have used that term derisively. Never do that. This escape doctrine is not to be ridiculed, since it was coined by the Lord Himself — words in red, in Luke 21:36: “ Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man..”

REASON #5: We Receive Our Reward
Revelation 11 makes it quite clear that we receive our reward while the earth is being judged. They are simultaneous events. Revelation 11:18 declares:
The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come,
And the time of the dead [saints], that they should be judged,
And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints [that’s us],
And those who fear Your name, small and great,
And should destroy [concurrently] those who destroy the earth.
After we receive our rewards, we return to the earth with the Lord. It is literally a new day. The 7th one thousand year day we call the Millennium. The Jews call it the long awaited “Kingdom Age.”


Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by PaulK, posted 02-14-2020 8:17 AM Faith has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15923
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 125 of 220 (871878)
02-14-2020 8:17 AM
Reply to: Message 124 by Faith
02-14-2020 6:13 AM


Re: Another List of Reasons for the Pre Trib Rapture
Funny how someone who claims to have good reasons would suddenly introduce another list of bad ones.

Reason 1 just introduces a couple more verses to an existing argument without dealing with the problems. There’s nothing to say that Christians will be Raptured away while the judgement is going on, even if they aren’t themselves targeted. (Indeed, you say that the American Civil War was an example of God’s judgement but if so, it is hard to say even that Christians weren’t targeted by that)

Reason 2 is a repeat. Do you really think that God has to Rapture all Christians to protect a small group of people who aren’t even in danger?

Reason 3 is a repeat of the “Church Age” argument, which I have already addressed.

Reason 4 is just another questionable interpretation. Luke 21:36 is more naturally read as meaning to pray to live through the events.

Reason 5 is really bad. It doesn’t even suggest that the Rapture has already happened. It does not specify that only the dead saints should be judged - just the dead (and if the saints have been resurrected in the Rapture how can they be dead? Obviously they have not yet been resurrected). Indeed the last line indicates that everyone is being judged - living and dead.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by Faith, posted 02-14-2020 6:13 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by jar, posted 02-14-2020 8:45 AM PaulK has not yet responded
 Message 128 by Faith, posted 02-14-2020 11:14 AM PaulK has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32165
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 126 of 220 (871879)
02-14-2020 8:45 AM
Reply to: Message 125 by PaulK
02-14-2020 8:17 AM


Re: Another List of Reasons for the Pre Trib Rapture
Plus one other BIG reason.

All prophecy that has not yet been fulfilled is a failed prophecy. It just ain't soup yet and there is no evidence it will ever be soup.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by PaulK, posted 02-14-2020 8:17 AM PaulK has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17919
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 127 of 220 (871885)
02-14-2020 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by Phat
02-13-2020 3:36 PM


Re: Why the Pre-Trib Rapture?
Phat writes:

A wicked and adulterous generation seeks after a sign....but signs and wonders will follow those who believe.


Interesting (unattributed) quote for you to pick. Note the context:
quote:
Matthew 12:38-40 Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee. But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

The sign that He promised was Himself being buried and rising from the dead. The wicked and adulterous generation was His generation, not ours.

And remember that He also warned against false prophets.


"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by Phat, posted 02-13-2020 3:36 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 34693
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 128 of 220 (871886)
02-14-2020 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 125 by PaulK
02-14-2020 8:17 AM


Re: Another List of Reasons for the Pre Trib Rapture
Reason 1 just introduces a couple more verses to an existing argument without dealing with the problems. There’s nothing to say that Christians will be Raptured away while the judgement is going on, even if they aren’t themselves targeted. (Indeed, you say that the American Civil War was an example of God’s judgement but if so, it is hard to say even that Christians weren’t targeted by that)

No idea where you get the idea that the Rapture happens during the judgment. It's PRE-Tribution, it inaugurates the judgment.

There are no problems that I know of. It's one of the points Jeffress also makes, but what I like about this source is that he adds more scripture. Both 1 Thessalonians 5:9 and Romans 5:9 say that Christians are not appointed to wrath but to salvation through Christ, the point being that Jesus Christ took God's wrath FOR us.

1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

It's God's wrath we are saved from, not earthly or human-caused tribulations like the Civil War. Christians have to go through a lot of those. Sure it's all God's judgment in a sense, as all calamities are, but the Great Tribulation is largely destruction of the natural world by "natural" causes -- and sometimes supernatural -- not manmade. Maybe the best comparison is the Flood of Noah.

Reason 2 is a repeat. Do you really think that God has to Rapture all Christians to protect a small group of people who aren’t even in danger?

No idea what you are talking about.

Checkd the list and I guess you think it's saying only the Church of Philadelphia is being protected? But all the seven churches are understood to represent all Christians.

Reason 3 is a repeat of the “Church Age” argument, which I have already addressed.

Guess I missed it. But this source elaborates the situation of the Jews.

Reason 4 is just another questionable interpretation. Luke 21:36 is more naturally read as meaning to pray to live through the events.

It's always understood to mean praying to be worthy to escape them completely. "Escape" I the word used.

Luk 21:36
Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Reason 5 is really bad. It doesn’t even suggest that the Rapture has already happened. It does not specify that only the dead saints should be judged - just the dead (and if the saints have been resurrected in the Rapture how can they be dead? Obviously they have not yet been resurrected). Indeed the last line indicates that everyone is being judged - living and dead.

I'm going to have to go reread those reasons since you don't quote them because I have no idea what you are talking about. I have to post this first because otherwise the way my computer has been working I'll lose what I"ve written.

Looks to me like he's only referring to the judgments of the saints during the Great Tribulation, since the White Throne Judgment isn't going to occur until the end of the Millennium when everybody else is judged.

Otherwise I agree, I don't know why he quotes a passage about the dead, saints or not, since yes the context is the Rapture which includes many living, and it all happens while the Great Tribulation is happening on the Earth.

=====================================

REASON #1: Not Appointed to Wrath
The primary proof of a pre-Tribulation rapture, given by the “experts,” is this: we are raptured before the Tribulation begins because the Church is not appointed to wrath. Coincidentally, that truth is revealed in Chapter 5 verse 9 of TWO separate books of the Bible: Romans 5:9 and 1 Thess. 5:9. Please look these verses up for yourself, to lock them into your thinking.
REASON #2: Kept From the Hour of Trial
Jesus Himself told the Apostle John on the Isle of Patmos that we (the Philadelphia/faithful Church) will be kept from the hour of trial. “Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth” (Rev. 3:10). Notice also that the world is being tested. Furthermore, throughout the Book of Revelation the term “earth dwellers” always refers to unsaved people.
REASON #3: God and the Jews
The seven year Tribulation is specifically a time for God to work with the Jews. Both the Angel Gabriel and the Apostle Paul make that point. Let’s listen first to Gabriel, who is God’s chief messenger angel and speaks for God Himself (remember as we read that the Tribulation is called “Daniel’s seventieth week”). “Seventy weeks are determined for your people and for your holy city…” (Daniel 9:24)
The Church was NOT present during the first 69 weeks of Gabriel’s prophecy, and it will not be here during Daniel’s 70th week either. Gabriel specifically said it was a time frame for God to work with Daniel’s people (the Jews) and his holy city (Jerusalem).
Next, let’s listen to the great Apostle Paul. Remember, we are making the point that scripture teaches the 70th week is a time for God to deal with the Jews. “…blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved…” (Romans 11:25)
Here we see God’s plan. The final gentile is won to the Lord after we are caught away. After we disappear the blinders come off of eyes of the Jewish people.
I personally believe we are in the time of Israel’s “jealousy” right now. The Christians love the Jews, support them, and defend them, even though the Jews have no deep love for us. But their “jealousy” turns to “anger” when we are caught away. They will be angry that we have left them without friends on the earth. This is explained in Deuteronomy and Romans. Let’s read it in Romans 10:19: “I will provoke you [the Jews] to jealousy by those who are not a nation [the Church]. I will move you to anger by a foolish nation” [the Church].
The inevitable result is God’s chosen people will be forced to turn back to Him, as they will have no friends left after we are gone. We see that in the Book of Hosea. The last line in Hosea 5 says: “In their affliction [Tribulation, indignation] they will earnestly seek Me.”
It is unfortunate that it takes a series of catastrophic events to bring them to the Lord as a nation. Mike Bickle explains the situation like this: “God loves the Jews, but the Jews don’t love Him.”
REASON #4: Escape Doctrine
The rapture is our “escape doctrine.” Some scoffers have used that term derisively. Never do that. This escape doctrine is not to be ridiculed, since it was coined by the Lord Himself — words in red, in Luke 21:36: “ Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man..”
REASON #5: We Receive Our Reward
Revelation 11 makes it quite clear that we receive our reward while the earth is being judged. They are simultaneous events. Revelation 11:18 declares:
The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come,
And the time of the dead [saints], that they should be judged,
And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints [that’s us],
And those who fear Your name, small and great,
And should destroy [concurrently] those who destroy the earth.
After we receive our rewards, we return to the earth with the Lord. It is literally a new day. The 7th one thousand year day we call the Millennium. The Jews call it the long awaited “Kingdom Age.”

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by PaulK, posted 02-14-2020 8:17 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by PaulK, posted 02-14-2020 11:38 AM Faith has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15923
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 129 of 220 (871888)
02-14-2020 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by Faith
02-14-2020 11:14 AM


Re: Another List of Reasons for the Pre Trib Rapture
quote:
No idea where you get the idea that the Rapture happens during the judgment. It's PRE-Tribution, it inaugurates the judgment.

Nit-picking. Even if Christians aren’t judged that doesn’t mean that they will be Raptured away.

quote:
There are no problems that I know of. It's one of the points Jeffress also makes, but what I like about this source is that he adds more scripture. Both 1 Thessalonians 5:9 and Romans 5:9 say that Christians are not appointed to wrath but to salvation through Christ, the point being that Jesus Christ took God's wrath FOR us.

Oh great, a couple more verses that only repeat a weak point and do nothing to address the weakness. It’s not much.

quote:
It's God's wrath we are saved from, not earthly or human-caused tribulations like the Civil War. Christians have to go through a lot of those. Sure it's all God's judgment in a sense, as all calamities are, but the Great Tribulation is largely destruction of the natural world by "natural" causes -- and sometimes supernatural -- not manmade. Maybe the best comparison is the Flood of Noah.

And those Judgements are instances of God’s wrath. Christians are not immune to being affected by them even if God’s anger is directed at others.

quote:
No idea what you are talking about.

Then you don’t understand your “reason”.

quote:
Guess I missed it. But this source elaborates about the situation of the Jews.

Which isn’t relevant. The fact that The whole idea of a massive gap is a silly invention and doesn’t give any reason to think that the Church will disappear is relevant.

quote:
It's always understood to mean praying to be worthy to escape them completely.

I very much doubt that that is the case. You may read it that way, but as I said the natural reading is to live through them, avoiding the worst by running to the mountains as Luke 21:21 advises.

ABE the following is redundant since you have deleted the assertion.

quote:
Why should it since it hasn't happened.

Revelation 11:18 follows the blowing of the Seventh Trumpet (Revelation 11:15) so at that point the Tribulation is well under way.

Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by Faith, posted 02-14-2020 11:14 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by Faith, posted 02-14-2020 11:54 AM PaulK has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 34693
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 130 of 220 (871889)
02-14-2020 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 129 by PaulK
02-14-2020 11:38 AM


Re: Another List of Reasons for the Pre Trib Rapture
The natural reading of Luke 21-36 is ESCAPE, not live through. "Escape" is the word used.

You don't givew the context of the Seventh Trumpet comment but I assume you think you are answering the "last trump" statement about the Rapture, and I was just about to post something about that since it's understood not to refer to the Seventh Trumpet of Revelation but the last trumpet sounded at the Feast of Trumpets or Rosh Hashanah


This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by PaulK, posted 02-14-2020 11:38 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by ringo, posted 02-14-2020 12:02 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 133 by PaulK, posted 02-14-2020 12:17 PM Faith has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17919
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 131 of 220 (871891)
02-14-2020 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by Faith
02-14-2020 11:54 AM


Re: Another List of Reasons for the Pre Trib Rapture
Faith writes:

The natural reading of Luke 21-36 is ESCAPE, not live through. "Escape" is the word used.


But you're interpreting it as "avoid". You can't escape something - fire, flood, etc. - without living through it.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by Faith, posted 02-14-2020 11:54 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 34693
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 132 of 220 (871894)
02-14-2020 12:14 PM


Why Rosh Hashanah is such a good time for the Rapture
1Co 15:51-52 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

This statement has often confused me, and others too I think, because we immediately think of the Seventh Trumpet in the Book of Revelation, which occurs long after the Rapture has occurred, near the end of the Great Tribulation while the Church is still in heaven with Jesus.

If that is the correct reading then we would have to give up the Pre-Tribulation Rapture altogether and look for another interpretation of the timing of the Rapture.

But this is resolved if we understand "the last trump" to refer to the last trumpet sounded during the Feast of Trumpets or Rosh Hashanah, also known as the Jewish New Year.

That holiday seems like a great choice for the timing of the Rapture for many reasons, which is why I got so enamored of that date a couple years ago as when it was to happen. There were other signs connected with it that year too.

But it's still a good time for the Rapture. Major events on God's calendar happen on the Jewish Holidays. Jesus was crucified on Passover, the outpouring of the Holy Spirit occurred at Pentecost. Rosh Hashanah is the next holiday in order, and it involves trumpets. It's also a celebration of a new beginning, the start of a new year, and is also a celebration of the creation. The Church is called "a new Creation," and is in fact to be the foundation for God's promise to renew the entire Creation as part of the plan of Redemption.

I know we are not to know the day or time of Jesus' return, and even identifying Rosh Hashanah is date-setting, but there it is, the best possible time for it to happen. The Rapture would after all be a major event on God's calendar, and Rosh Hashanah is the next Jewish Holiday on the divine calendar. Hard to avoid the connection. But of course we don't know which year. This year it comes on September 18. No harm in being ready just in case of course.

And if God brings it about on some other completely unexpected day then we'll be as surprised as we're supposed to be and maybe it will be the beginning of a completely new divine calendar.

The other significant date that occurred to me is Tisha B'Av but it commemorates tragedies in the history of the Jews which doesn't seem quite appropriate. It's also not given in scripture as the Jewish High Holy Days are, it's just something that's been observed over time to be the date on which tragedies occur, such as the destruction of both temples.

So I add this ...just because.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15923
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 133 of 220 (871895)
02-14-2020 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by Faith
02-14-2020 11:54 AM


Re: Another List of Reasons for the Pre Trib Rapture
quote:
The natural reading of Luke 21-36 is ESCAPE, not live through. "Escape" is the word used

But their meanings are not contradictory. And why can’t you escape by running to the mountains ?

quote:
You don't givew the context of the Seventh Trumpet comment

Yes I do. It’s your deleted comment that the Rapture had not occurred at the point of Revelation 11:18. Since that point follows the blowing of the seventh trumpet it must be after the Tribulation has begun. So a pre-Tribulation Rapture would have had to have happened before then, and the dead saints would have been resurrected.

Yet, As I remind you, Revelatiion 20 4:5 says the the first resurrection - of the martyrs - occurs just prior to the Millennium and the remaining Christians must wait until after that. How is this consistent with a mass resurrection of Christians before the Tribulation?

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by Faith, posted 02-14-2020 11:54 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by Faith, posted 02-14-2020 12:24 PM PaulK has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 34693
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 134 of 220 (871896)
02-14-2020 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by PaulK
02-14-2020 12:17 PM


Re: Another List of Reasons for the Pre Trib Rapture
Hard to avoid a worldwide catastrophe by running to the mountains.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by PaulK, posted 02-14-2020 12:17 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by PaulK, posted 02-14-2020 12:27 PM Faith has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15923
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 135 of 220 (871897)
02-14-2020 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by Faith
02-14-2020 12:24 PM


Re: Another List of Reasons for the Pre Trib Rapture
quote:
Hard to avoid a worldwide catastrophe by running to the mountains.

You should read Luke 21. It very much indicates that the worst is in Judaea and around Jerusalem and explicitly advises fleeing to the mountains.

20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by Faith, posted 02-14-2020 12:24 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by Faith, posted 02-14-2020 8:38 PM PaulK has responded

  
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