Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 74 (8963 total)
85 online now:
Minnemooseus (Adminnemooseus), PaulK (2 members, 83 visitors)
Newest Member: Samuel567
Post Volume: Total: 870,986 Year: 2,734/23,288 Month: 925/1,809 Week: 44/313 Day: 0/44 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Generating information in a neural network playing chess
JonF
Member
Posts: 5869
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 1 of 13 (871488)
02-03-2020 10:10 AM


Complex information arising from random processes: the chess program AlphaZero

quote:
A sticking point among a lot of ID/Creationists seems to be whether information can be generated by a non-intelligent process.

Computer chess provides a very dramatic example. Previously, chess-playing algorithms were designed by software developers in concert with strong human players. In 2017, however, the AlphaZero program was created by initializing a neural net with the rules of chess, and then having it play millions of games against itself, updating its neural net with each game. After 24 hours of such self-play, AlphaZero won a 100-game match against Stockfish, the currently strongest human-designed algorithm, with the score of 28 wins, 82 draws, no losses. (It was not allowed to update its net based on its games with Stockfish, so did not “learn” from playing the champion; all it had was its experience playing against itself.)


Links and Information, I suppose.


Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by WookieeB, posted 02-14-2020 12:27 AM JonF has responded

  
Adminnemooseus
Director
Posts: 3913
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 2 of 13 (871490)
02-04-2020 12:26 AM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Generating information in a neural network playing chess thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
WookieeB
Member
Posts: 91
Joined: 01-18-2019


Message 3 of 13 (871870)
02-14-2020 12:27 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by JonF
02-03-2020 10:10 AM


A sticking point among a lot of ID/Creationists seems to be whether information can be generated by a non-intelligent process

A bit of a vague, non-committal, and not necessarily true statement. Neverthless, it has no bearing..... because even if you classify what was generated as information, it was generated by an intelligent process. The AlphaZero program and algorithms were made by intelligent minds.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by JonF, posted 02-03-2020 10:10 AM JonF has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by JonF, posted 02-14-2020 9:42 AM WookieeB has responded

  
JonF
Member
Posts: 5869
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 4 of 13 (871881)
02-14-2020 9:42 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by WookieeB
02-14-2020 12:27 AM


The Alpha Zero program wrote its own "algorithms".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by WookieeB, posted 02-14-2020 12:27 AM WookieeB has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by WookieeB, posted 02-16-2020 12:54 PM JonF has responded

  
WookieeB
Member
Posts: 91
Joined: 01-18-2019


Message 5 of 13 (871928)
02-16-2020 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by JonF
02-14-2020 9:42 AM


The Alpha Zero program wrote its own "algorithms".


LOL, no it didnt. It was programmed with a MCTS and Alpha-Beta search looking for slightly different outcomes from other chess algorithms. Add in some good memory and compute power and you ended up with the best chess program to date.

But it's intelligently designed all the way down.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by JonF, posted 02-14-2020 9:42 AM JonF has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by JonF, posted 02-16-2020 3:43 PM WookieeB has responded
 Message 7 by RAZD, posted 02-16-2020 4:39 PM WookieeB has responded

  
JonF
Member
Posts: 5869
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 6 of 13 (871954)
02-16-2020 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by WookieeB
02-16-2020 12:54 PM


It wrote its own algorithms.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by WookieeB, posted 02-16-2020 12:54 PM WookieeB has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by WookieeB, posted 02-17-2020 5:20 PM JonF has not yet responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 20548
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 7 of 13 (871960)
02-16-2020 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by WookieeB
02-16-2020 12:54 PM


Evolved algorithms
... looking for slightly different outcomes from other chess algorithms. Add in some good memory and compute power and you ended up with the best chess program to date.


You mean it used evolved algorithms? Ones that didn’t exist before? That it developed ... through evolutionary process of modification and selection?

Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel•American•Zen•Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by WookieeB, posted 02-16-2020 12:54 PM WookieeB has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by JonF, posted 02-16-2020 4:53 PM RAZD has responded
 Message 11 by WookieeB, posted 02-17-2020 5:27 PM RAZD has responded

  
JonF
Member
Posts: 5869
Joined: 06-23-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 8 of 13 (871963)
02-16-2020 4:53 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by RAZD
02-16-2020 4:39 PM


Re: Evolved algorithms
We don't even know what its algorithms are. They were generated by a neural network; I don't know if that counts as an evolutionary algorithm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by RAZD, posted 02-16-2020 4:39 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by RAZD, posted 02-17-2020 12:26 PM JonF has not yet responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 20548
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 9 of 13 (871990)
02-17-2020 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by JonF
02-16-2020 4:53 PM


Re: Evolved algorithms
We don't even know what its algorithms are. They were generated by a neural network; I don't know if that counts as an evolutionary algorithm.


Trial & error, selection of fitter algorithms for next generation, modification & repeat.

We don’t know the specific DNA changes either ...

Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel•American•Zen•Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by JonF, posted 02-16-2020 4:53 PM JonF has not yet responded

  
WookieeB
Member
Posts: 91
Joined: 01-18-2019


Message 10 of 13 (871999)
02-17-2020 5:20 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by JonF
02-16-2020 3:43 PM


It wrote its own algorithms.


No it did't. Did you even look at the paper referenced about the program? The one named "Mastering Chess and Shogi by Self-Play with a
General Reinforcement Learning Algorithm" which describes the general idea of what was developed as the program, what instructions and concepts were programmed in.....by programmers???

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by JonF, posted 02-16-2020 3:43 PM JonF has not yet responded

  
WookieeB
Member
Posts: 91
Joined: 01-18-2019


Message 11 of 13 (872001)
02-17-2020 5:27 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by RAZD
02-16-2020 4:39 PM


NRe: Evolved algorithms
No, it didnt "evolve" it's own algorithm. It was programmed with the rules of chess (and other games as it turns out), provided formulas for weighing different moves in the game, given memory and the ability to compare different outcomes so that it could use what it had previously determined and build from there. All the instructions for it to do what it was going to do, the algorithm, was given to it by the programmers. The program did not learn to do any new tasks or abilities that were not given to it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by RAZD, posted 02-16-2020 4:39 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by RAZD, posted 02-22-2020 2:15 PM WookieeB has responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 20548
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 12 of 13 (872211)
02-22-2020 2:15 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by WookieeB
02-17-2020 5:27 PM


Re: Evolved algorithms
No, it didnt "evolve" it's own algorithm. It was programmed with the rules of chess (and other games as it turns out), provided formulas for weighing different moves in the game, given memory and the ability to compare different outcomes so that it could use what it had previously determined and build from there. All the instructions for it to do what it was going to do, the algorithm, was given to it by the programmers. The program did not learn to do any new tasks or abilities that were not given to it.


It was programmed with the rules of evolution, provided formulas for weighing different survival strategies, given memory and the ability to compare survival outcomes so that it could use what it had previously determined and build from there. All the instructions for it to do what it was going to do, the algorithm, was give to it by the programmers. The program did not learn to do any new tasks or abilities that were not given to it.

Still sounds like an evolutionary process. No it didn't sudden-macro-evolve a new task, or start playing a different game, but evolution doesn't work that way either.

btw -- there are more than one algorithm involved. Just like there are more than one survival strategy.

Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel•American•Zen•Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by WookieeB, posted 02-17-2020 5:27 PM WookieeB has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by WookieeB, posted 02-23-2020 10:15 PM RAZD has not yet responded

  
WookieeB
Member
Posts: 91
Joined: 01-18-2019


Message 13 of 13 (872264)
02-23-2020 10:15 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by RAZD
02-22-2020 2:15 PM


Re: Evolved algorithms
It was programmed with the rules of evolution...

A bit of a generous description, don't you think? After all, there was no mention of the word "evolution" or "evolve", and only one instance of "selection" that had nothing to do with what could be inferred as a "rule of evolution". But hey, if you want to say that, I'll give that to ya.

And yet with that sort of description, the results end up being totally within the parameters of a designed system and show nothing akin to the claims of biological evolution being able to accomplish. I'm curious what you think "evolved" in the system.

The search space of moves is immense and could not fully be searched in detail with modern technology. And yet that space all falls within the parameters of the rules of chess. The programmers gave the chess program a way to heuristically search through the space, find patterns and apply weights to what it searched to build a statistically more-likely-to-win method to playing the game. It was intelligently designed all the way down, and in the end, no matter how well the program performed it's job (surviving in analogy), it still was just 'playing' chess.... as designed. It didn't learn or develop anything new on it's own.

If the whole point was to take the chess algorithm and analogize it to something like natural selection, ok. Nobody, including any ID proponent, is seriously debating that natural selection is a real thing. But I disagree with the title of the PT article, in that there was no complex information created, nor was the process random (claims the paper on the chess program never even hinted at). Any information the program dealt with and the process was programmed in already: ie chess rules, search methods, and algorithm(s) dealing with weighing results. Beyond doing what it was programmed to do in a way that exceeded prior programs, there's nothing there to blow a horn about.

Edited by WookieeB, : cleanup


This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by RAZD, posted 02-22-2020 2:15 PM RAZD has not yet responded

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2020