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Author Topic:   Charismatic Chaos
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7041
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 496 of 531 (871826)
02-13-2020 10:18 AM
Reply to: Message 386 by Faith
02-04-2020 11:27 AM


Racism
Would you call this racism? Or are you able to hand wave this away so you can continue to claim racism is a leftist lie.

Racism alive and well. Someone should be going to jail for this. If you ever wonder why people don't report things like, racism, sexual harassment, rape, this is why.

quote:
Former West Linn Police Chief Terry Timeus had his officers work as his “personal posse” to initiate an unwarranted, racially motivated surveillance and arrest of a black Portland man as a favor to the chief’s fishing buddy...
“This case vividly illustrates a ready willingness on the part of the West Linn police to abuse the enormous power they have been given, and a casual, jocular, old-boy-style racism of the kind that we Oregonians tend to want to associate with the Deep South rather than our own institutions,” Buchanan said.

https://www.oregonlive.com/...-chiefs-favor-for-a-friend.htm


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 386 by Faith, posted 02-04-2020 11:27 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17919
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 497 of 531 (871830)
02-13-2020 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 494 by Phat
02-12-2020 5:21 PM


Re: feel all better now?
Phat writes:

If you figure a way to do it, I would encourage you to follow through. Just how will we test him?


We've been through that many times. Compare what he says against what the Bible says.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 494 by Phat, posted 02-12-2020 5:21 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 498 by Phat, posted 02-13-2020 10:58 AM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13695
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 498 of 531 (871831)
02-13-2020 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 497 by ringo
02-13-2020 10:45 AM


Re: feel all better now?
he used no scripture. Remember he is a secular humanist chaplain. He basically just gave me 3 things to think about.

1) Be careful who I listen to
2) Be honest with myself
3) Don't be afraid.


“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 497 by ringo, posted 02-13-2020 10:45 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 499 by ringo, posted 02-13-2020 11:13 AM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17919
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 499 of 531 (871834)
02-13-2020 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 498 by Phat
02-13-2020 10:58 AM


Re: feel all better now?
Phat writes:

he used no scripture.


You said, "I did find your honest apologist in Bart Campolo." Message 492

How is he an apologist if he uses no scripture?

Phat writes:

He basically just gave me 3 things to think about.
1) Be careful who I listen to
2) Be honest with myself
3) Don't be afraid.


We've been telling you that for years.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 498 by Phat, posted 02-13-2020 10:58 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 500 by Phat, posted 02-13-2020 3:04 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13695
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 500 of 531 (871851)
02-13-2020 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 499 by ringo
02-13-2020 11:13 AM


Re: feel all better now?
ringo writes:

How is he an apologist if he uses no scripture?

Because he was a believer for 20 years. God is still very much "in" him. He knew very little about me and yet accurately described my basic issues...apart from the gay thing. I had a further conversation with him for an hour on Skype and he told me the same things as other counselors who took 5 or 6 sessions to deduce.

His Dad remains a Christian and he told me that he had no problem with me remaining one if it "worked for me". I told him I had many questions but no doubts.
In The Pew But Questioning # 504

Edited by Thugpreacha, : No reason given.


“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 499 by ringo, posted 02-13-2020 11:13 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 502 by ringo, posted 02-14-2020 10:48 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13695
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 501 of 531 (871873)
02-14-2020 4:09 AM


Modern Day Falling Out
David Diga Hernandez is one of the new crop of young preachers doing the same thing that the old guys like Hinn used to do. I have yet to see any scandalous activity from him. Judge for yourselves. is it staged? Fake? Are the people simply expecting something to happen and falling on their own?

“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

Replies to this message:
 Message 503 by ringo, posted 02-14-2020 10:58 AM Phat has responded
 Message 505 by Taq, posted 02-14-2020 6:00 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17919
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 502 of 531 (871883)
02-14-2020 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 500 by Phat
02-13-2020 3:04 PM


Re: feel all better now?
Phat writes:

Because he was a believer for 20 years.


Then he was an apologist and now he may be honest. To be an "honest apologist" he'd have to be an apologist and honest at the same time. He sounds like a reformed apologist.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 500 by Phat, posted 02-13-2020 3:04 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17919
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 503 of 531 (871884)
02-14-2020 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 501 by Phat
02-14-2020 4:09 AM


Re: Modern Day Falling Out
Phat writes:

Judge for yourselves. is it staged? Fake?


The "healing" of the lady on crutches is probably staged. Let me pick a person to be healed.

The falling down is theatrical silliness. Let's see God catch them.

Phat writes:

Are the people simply expecting something to happen and falling on their own?


I'd used the word "hoping" instead of "expecting". They're hoping for a miracle so much that they're willing to give God a little help (and also confident that there's a henchmen there to catch them).

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 501 by Phat, posted 02-14-2020 4:09 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 504 by Phat, posted 02-14-2020 12:44 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 13695
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 504 of 531 (871898)
02-14-2020 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 503 by ringo
02-14-2020 10:58 AM


Re: Modern Day Falling Out
ringo writes:

The "healing" of the lady on crutches is probably staged. Let me pick a person to be healed.
The falling down is theatrical silliness. Let's see God catch them.

If people go to a healing service "expecting something" it always makes me wonder why they cant simply expect God to do it anyway. Judging myself and my own behavior, I could break it down this way...(though I dont like it it sounds right)

  • An immature believer expects favor and blessing.
  • A growing believer prays for others and expects something for them.
  • A mature believer trusts God no matter what. Kinda like Job did.
  • A skeptical Believer says the prayers in communuion with other (Episcopalians) yet feels that honestly there is no way to know if God is even present or if His Son rose from the dead but hey! It matters not. The "believers" all need to roll up their sleeves and help bless each other because God has never shown up. They belong to the club, have their name on the wall and a merit badge, but likely have never heard God's voice (or inner impression) and/or logically deduce that they themselves created the feeling.

  • A Canadian Unbeliever has been through the organized religion, found that the people who claimed to have the Holy Spirit were not doing any work but were simply braying "Lord! Lord!" and likes hanging around regular people who are humanists and who *do* roll up their sleeves despite never giving a thought to what happens after they die. Bart Campolo is one of these...a *reformed apologist* as you say.
    Let's see God catch them.
    Maybe He wants them to fall on their blessed assurance and get up by themselves.

    “The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    “As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
    Anne Lamott
    Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 503 by ringo, posted 02-14-2020 10:58 AM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 506 by ringo, posted 02-14-2020 9:32 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    Taq
    Member
    Posts: 8229
    Joined: 03-06-2009
    Member Rating: 4.1


    (4)
    Message 505 of 531 (871901)
    02-14-2020 6:00 PM
    Reply to: Message 501 by Phat
    02-14-2020 4:09 AM


    Re: Modern Day Falling Out
    Phat writes:

    Judge for yourselves. is it staged? Fake? Are the people simply expecting something to happen and falling on their own?

    Human psychology is a powerful thing. You can see the same thing in fake martial arts where teachers claiming to have qi power are able to knock over their students just by waving their hand in their general direction. You have to really wonder what is going through their mind, but I can't help but think that they believe it is real.

    Even better, these same fake martial arts teachers have gone up against real fighters, and they had their butts seriously kicked. None of their techniques worked, at all. Why would someone let someone kick the crap out of them and embarrass them if they knew it was fake? They started out fooling their students, and in the process they fooled themselves.

    The Bizarre World of Fake Martial Arts


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 501 by Phat, posted 02-14-2020 4:09 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 17919
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 2.5


    Message 506 of 531 (871904)
    02-14-2020 9:32 PM
    Reply to: Message 504 by Phat
    02-14-2020 12:44 PM


    Re: Modern Day Falling Out
    Phat writes:

    If people go to a healing service "expecting something" it always makes me wonder why they cant simply expect God to do it anyway.


    Funny how those faith healers feel the need to supply evidence.

    "I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 504 by Phat, posted 02-14-2020 12:44 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 13695
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.2


    Message 507 of 531 (871978)
    02-17-2020 3:10 AM
    Reply to: Message 299 by ringo
    01-26-2020 1:13 PM


    Lifetime Of Sacrificial Chores
    ringo writes:

    A logical God could be created and logical angels could be created. But you describe a supposedly "all-powerful" God - who has a powerful rival.
    Gods "powerful rival" is humans themselves. Think about it. We either believe in Him and then make money off of His name or we decide that He is illogical and seek to throw Him away. You have presented the idea that God is unnecessary and that we have to do it all ourselves anyway. jar has added the ideas that humans create their own gods and that even if a real One existed he likely would think no higher of us than pond scum or space dust. Both of you agree that the message is about what *we* do for others. I suppose that if a rival decides to imitate Christ, the rival disappears and there is only Christ. If, however, Christianity is only about what we do, it is at best another chore with no benefits for being a member.

    “The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    “As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
    Anne Lamott
    Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 299 by ringo, posted 01-26-2020 1:13 PM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 508 by jar, posted 02-17-2020 7:49 AM Phat has responded
     Message 509 by ringo, posted 02-17-2020 10:40 AM Phat has responded

      
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 32165
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 2.2


    Message 508 of 531 (871979)
    02-17-2020 7:49 AM
    Reply to: Message 507 by Phat
    02-17-2020 3:10 AM


    Re: Lifetime Of Sacrificial Chores
    Phat writes:

    If, however, Christianity is only about what we do, it is at best another chore with no benefits for being a member.


    Exactly Phat. Granted, that is a hard sell and it's far easier and far more lucrative to sell the "Friends with Benefits" Christianity.

    The benefits though are in creating a better world for those, the least of these my brothers.

    quote:
    And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 507 by Phat, posted 02-17-2020 3:10 AM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 512 by Phat, posted 02-18-2020 4:19 PM jar has acknowledged this reply

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 17919
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 2.5


    Message 509 of 531 (871982)
    02-17-2020 10:40 AM
    Reply to: Message 507 by Phat
    02-17-2020 3:10 AM


    Re: Lifetime Of Sacrificial Chores
    Phat writes:

    Gods "powerful rival" is humans themselves.

    That's what I keep telling you but you seem to think "Satan" is a real entity; you keep talking about "spiritual warfare".

    Phat writes:

    We either believe in Him and then make money off of His name or we decide that He is illogical and seek to throw Him away.

    We don't "decide" that He is illogical. We look at your logic and we see it doesn't work.

    Phat writes:

    You have presented the idea that God is unnecessary and that we have to do it all ourselves anyway.

    That idea is so obviously true that it shouldn't have to be presented at all.

    Phat writes:

    If, however, Christianity is only about what we do, it is at best another chore with no benefits for being a member.

    There are certainly no benefits beyond what non-Christians have. But the benefits of doing unto others should be pretty obvious.

    "I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 507 by Phat, posted 02-17-2020 3:10 AM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 510 by Phat, posted 02-18-2020 4:09 PM ringo has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 13695
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.2


    Message 510 of 531 (872021)
    02-18-2020 4:09 PM
    Reply to: Message 509 by ringo
    02-17-2020 10:40 AM


    Re: Lifetime Of Sacrificial Chores
    Phat writes:

    Gods "powerful rival" is humans themselves.

    ringo writes:

    That's what I keep telling you but you seem to think "Satan" is a real entity; you keep talking about "spiritual warfare".
    As I have mentioned before, I once had a definite encounter with an unknown chorus of voices. There were but 4 of us present. To this day the event is etched in our minds.
    Phat writes:

    You have presented the idea that God is unnecessary and that we have to do it all ourselves anyway.

    ringo writes:

    That idea is so obviously true that it shouldn't have to be presented at all.
    Perhaps the idea that we have to do the work ourselves is obvious, but the idea that belief (and/or God) is unnecessary is very much a hot button topic. I have recently found a really good podcast where the host debates a number of Christians.
    Dogma Debate

    Comedian and actor, David Smalley, respectfully invites believers to provide evidence for their religions, crystal healing, ouija boards, witchcraft, politics, or other worldviews. Though some of the discussions are over 3 hours in length and there are no audio transcripts, I plan on starting a topic on this show and attempting to present some of the best moments that I heard.

    Phat writes:

    If, however, Christianity is only about what we do, it is at best another chore with no benefits for being a member.

    There are certainly no benefits beyond what non-Christians have. But the benefits of doing unto others should be pretty obvious.
    As of this writing, I am unconvinced that Christians do not benefit from the Communion beyond what non-Christians have. It will likely be hard if not impossible to prove, but it is the way it *should* be, in my opinion. Otherwise, God has no need to interact with our culture.

    “The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
    “As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

    - You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
    Anne Lamott
    Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 509 by ringo, posted 02-17-2020 10:40 AM ringo has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 511 by jar, posted 02-18-2020 4:16 PM Phat has responded
     Message 517 by ringo, posted 02-18-2020 7:29 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

      
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