|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
Thread ▼ Details |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: Biblical Support for the Pre-Tribulation Rapture | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1464 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Luke 21 is Luke's version of what is known as the Olivet Discourse, which is given in Matthew and Mark as well. This is where Jesus teaches the disciples about the very last days. It starts out with a prophecy of the fall of Jerusalem and the temple in 70 AD and then the scene shifts to the end times, when calamity is to come upon the whole world. This is understood to refer to the Day of the Lord or the Great Tribulation we are talking about in this thread, and Luke 21:36 tells us to pray to to be worthy to escape that worldwide calamity. And those who teach the Pre-Tribulation Rapture take it to mean we want to be worthy to be in the rapture before the Tribulation begins.
The switch occurs in the second half of Luke 21:24 about the "times of the Gentiles," how Jerusalem will be given over to the Gentiles until "the times of the Gentiles are finished." And the passage goes on to describe signs in the heavens and the coming of the Son of Man. We are clearly in a time long future to the calamity of 70AD when escape can't be a matter of fleeing to the mountains because the entire world is to be in tribulation. : Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
PaulK Member Posts: 17825 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: With some significant rewriting of it.
quote: The Tribulation IS the fall of Jerusalem as is quite clear if you compare it with Mark (or Matthew - those two are almost identical). Mark and Matthew do NOT have a shift in time either - that is one of the important changes.
quote: Nope. It is a little clearer in Mark - in that Mark actually mentions the word tribulation but the time jump is to the Second Coming in verse 27. Luke 21
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. 25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. 27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. quote: Well, exactly - the jump is to events AFTER the Tribulation. That pretty much kills your whole argument.
quote: The shift in time is not that great. All the events - all of them - must complete within a generation (21:32). Revelation 11:2 suggests that the gap will be only 42 months.
quote: You are suggesting a post-Tribulation Rapture to escape the Second Coming. (The advice to run to the mountains does refer to the actual Tribulation - which you have put in 70AD. I don’t think that the Rapture happened before then.)
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Don't mean to jump in on your discussion but here is another thought from the Epistles by N T Wright
quote: Edited by GDR, : No reason given. Edited by AdminPhat, : edited paragraph spacing to make it easier to read.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8 |
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1464 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Well, GDR, I don't think I'm up to taking on N T Wright except to say that I don't get how he decides that a concept that sounds as physically literal as the Rapture descriptions do is really metaphorical. I cringe from the thought of getting into that kind of semantic argument here for the umpteenth time. The English language just doesn't support turning such a concept into a metaphor so I have to suppose he's winging it, with little or no justification, simply because he doesn't have the faith to believe in such a literal Rapture. And that's all I want to say at the moment.
The only way I can answer PaulK is to say that you can't just read a passage of such complex prophecy as Luke 21 as if it's chronological, it has to be read in the context of all the other passages on the same subject, and although Luke 21 leaps to the context of the Second Coming that doesn't rule out a Pre-Tribulation Rapture seven years prior because the Rapture is in essence part of the Second Coming: once it occurs you know the Second Coming is seven years future. The Tribulation is described in many different places that make it clear it's the Day of the Lord that has been prophesied throughout the Old Testament to be a period of God's wrath on the earth no one will be able to withstand. And it certainly does precede the Second Coming so there's nothing out of order abourt that, then when in 21:36 we are admonished to pray that we will be worthy to escape the outpouring of wrath, it's talking about escaping it before it happens of course, and since it's a worldwide tribulation escape by being taken to heaven is a strong possibility. That possibility is confirmed by other scriptures. Few Bible verses or even whole passages stand alone, and those from which the Pre Trib Rapture is deduced are scattered and often ambiguous. It takes more study than I'm up to and when I've tried I quickly get bogged down in the ambiguities and give up. Through most of my studies I held to the idea that the Rapture, which is indisputably described in the Bible as a real event, would happen at the time of Jesus' Second Coming. Understanding why that interpretation doesn't hold together scripturally really does take quite a bit of study of all the Biblical references in relation to each other. It's taken some time to become familiar with the arguments for the Pre Trib Rapture by God's preachers and teachers who have worked through those ambiguities and do a good job of making the case; and there are many who argue for it who are independent of each other and yet come to the same conclusion using the same Biblical references, which adds to its credibility. I've been listening lately to John MacArthur's preachings on the subject, and he makes use of the same scriptures Jeffress and others do, which just keeps piling on the evidence for it. He also organizes the material in a way that's easier for me to grasp, unless that's just because by now it's becoming familiar enough to me that I don't have to struggle as much to get the logic of it. And he's succinct. I'll post a video or two of his though it may be too much for people to watch through. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
PaulK Member Posts: 17825 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: Luke 21 is not that complex. And it is easy to see where it is not chronological. It is probably much better to read it alongside the original - or at least earlier - version in Mark 13 (which the author of Luke had access to) because the rewriting obscures some points. But - as usual - you don’t deal with my actual points. I am not even claiming that Luke 21 rules out a pre-Tribulation Rapture, only that it does not support it.
quote: However, escaping by taking actions on Earth is clearly present in the text - in the part that actually covers the Tribulation (as I pointed out) There is no equivalent mention of escaping by being absent from the Earth. Speculations unsupported by the text are not great evidence and you are going against the natural reading of 1 Thessalonians and contradicting Revelation 20.
quote: More accurately the Rapture is read into verses which are open to other - and often better - interpretations. Which means that it is not really true to say that there is confirming scripture. Especially as Revelation 20:4-6 contradicts a pre-Tribulation Rapture. Here is is again:
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. The FIRST resurrection - of Christian martyrs - immediately precedes the Millenium. There will be no general resurrection of Christians until after the Millenium. Since the Rapture includes a general resurrection of Christians it would have to be after the Millenium unless the Revelatiion is wrong.
quote: More accurately it confirms that there is no good evidence for the pre-Tribulation Rapture. Who would use such hopelessly weak arguments if there was a good case for it ?
quote: If he has good arguments why not write them out? If he doesn’t - as seems very likely - watching the video is a waste of time.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1464 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Here's John MacArrhur on the Pre Tribulation Rapture. Scriptures he refers to as defining the concept are
1 Thessalonians 4, 1 Corinthians 15 and John 14. These are whole chapters so it may be too much to copy out. AbE: I see PaulK wants me to write out his arguments. I'll try to do that but I want to get at least one other video first.. . Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1464 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
However, escaping by taking actions on Earth is clearly present in the text - in the part that actually covers the Tribulation (as I pointed out) No, that is where Jesus is talking about the coming destruction of the temple and Jerusalem, from which He tells them to flee to the mountains. The scene doesn't change until verse 24 where the final Tribulation or Day of the Lord is foreshadowed. Luke 21 is just one account of the Olivet Disourse where Jesus talks about both the 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, and uses that as a model to jump to the Day of the Lord or the final Tribulation coming on the entire Earth. The other accounts are in Mark 13 and Matthew 24-25. They are all to be read together to get a fuller picture. The fuller talk of which the one I posted is just a part is titled "The Final Generation" in which MacArthur discussed Mark 13 (and says "this generation" clearly refers to the generation which will be alive at the time of the events Jesus prophesies.) The whole talk is in two parts, about one hour each so I'm sure it's too much to listen to, but I'll post the first hour and hope I'll be able to come back and give at least an outline of the points he is making.. . .Near the beginning of this talk MacArthur says that he''s been preaching for over fifty years on this topic and through all his studies of the scriptures he's only continued to confirm his understanding of the Pre Trib Rapture. Other topics may be seen differently by continuing to study them over time, and certainly my own study of this topic keeps changing for that matter, but he is a much better reader of scripture than I am and the evidence for the Pre Tribulation Rapture continues to be compelling, and he lays it out compellingly as a result. Oh, yes of course, PaulK, you know much better than John MacArthur what the Bible says. Of course. Nevertheless he does represent the many preachers and theologians who argue the Pre Trib Rapture from the scriptures, so I guess the reader can decide which of you makes the more persuasive case. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
PaulK Member Posts: 17825 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: Which is the Tribulation. You don’t see it because Luke’s rewrite added in a gap between the Tribulation and the Second Coming and you have magnified that gap to around 2000 years to try and fit the text to your beliefs. Even though Luke tells us that the gap can’t be anywhere near that long, as I already pointed out, In reality the Oliver Discourse is primarily about the destruction of Herod’s Temple. The Disciples ask Jesus to tell them when the Temple will be destroyed and Jesus tells them - the idea that he suddenly started talking about something completely unrelated is not justified by anything in the text. It comes from the reality that the Temple was destroyed and the end did not come. But that’s not a valid reason to rewrite the text.
quote: A shame that you didn’t do that, then. I have. That’s how you can see that the fall of Jerusalem is the Tribulation - because the parallel verses in Mark are rather clearer on the subject. And I can tell you that Matthew’s version is pretty much redundant. It’s basically a copy of Mark’s.
quote: That is certainly false - it is not at all clear. Indeed there are pointers in the text that quite strongly suggest otherwise. However, even if that is the meaning it means all the events must occur in the span of a single generation So, no. A span of close to 2000 years is right out.
quote: I certainly know better than you.
quote: And we’ve seen those arguments and they are weak. Are you ever going to deal with Revelation 20:4-6 - apart from ignoring verse 4 and insisting on your own ideas instead ? Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1464 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
The FIRST resurrection - of Christian martyrs - immediately precedes the Millenium. There will be no general resurrection of Christians until after the Millenium. Since the Rapture includes a general resurrection of Christians it would have to be after the Millenium unless the Revelatiion is wrong. No, this is the situation I mentioned above somewhere that I've found to be problematic though part of the Pre Trib teaching, that there are two different sets of believers. The Church is raptured and is in heaven during all the events of the Tribulation. During the Tribulation many others are converted but they are a different group, they are not the Church. A third of Israel will be among them, and they will be the "great multitude" of Revelation 7. I am still not at all clear how we are to think of them. It took me a long time to accept the idea that there are two separate groups of believers at all, but even now that I accept it I feel a need to know a lot more about this second group. In any case they aren't the Church, they are the martyrs of the Great Tribulation and they have a separate judgment from the Church. The Church's judgment is called the Bema Seat and it's for rewarding the Christians according to their deeds. The Church is spared judgment by God's wrath because Jesus died for us, so our judgment is what our deeds have earned us, which will be different for each individual. The other judgment is the Great White Throne Judgment, and although I know the unbelievers are sent to the Lake of Fire from there I am not at all clear about the believers of the Tribulation except that they are invited to inherit the Kingdom of God. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1464 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I would suggest that you refrain from commenting on MacArthur's reading of the generation that will be alive at the time of the events prophesied before hearing his argumemts. He's certainly heard yours. Ad nauseam I would suppose.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
PaulK Member Posts: 17825 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: That is what the Pre Trib lot SAY. It is an interpretation, it is not the only possible interpretation. Do you really think that a human interpretation overrides something that the Bible clearly states ? Obviously there can’t be a big resurrection of all the previous Christians before the FIRST resurrection. The word FIRST should tell you that.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
PaulK Member Posts: 17825 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: I’ve refrained from commenting on any arguments that I haven’t already heard. I have commented on one obvious falsehood and on arguments already presented in this thread. I don’t see why I should refrain from either of this things.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1464 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
You give no hint of having heard MacArthur on the subject.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1464 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I'm going with the reputable exegetes over you, my dear PK. As I said early on I've had to struggle to understand as much as I do, and your contradictions are not compelling in the slightest. Everybody at EvC thinks they know what the Bible says in so many direct words. Well that is one of the biggest delusions anybody has about the Bible.
Anyway I'm now trying to get a grip on the Millennium. See you later.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
PaulK Member Posts: 17825 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: And I don’t claim to. However you did claim that he uses the same scriptures and we already know that those offer no real support for a pre Trib Rapture.
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024