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Author Topic:   Let's face it...
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 78 of 108 (872)
12-18-2001 1:41 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by redstang281
12-11-2001 10:27 PM


quote:
Originally posted by redstang281:
I'm sorry but I consider God more of an authority than yourself. God said sex is his gift to a married couple. For those who choose to abuse this gift there is std's. Before the fall of man there was no sin (or degeneration.) Animals didn't kill each other for food, there were no thorn bushes, and most likely no std's. This was something the bible says came about after man's sin. If you consider the fact that two people who withdraw from sexual attivity until marriage and then are faithful to one another it becomes apparent that my theory is true. As for a husband who gets aids from a cheating wife, maybe God is paying him back for some other sin he commited earlier. I believe it is intirely possible that we are not always punished emmidiatly after we sin. But that being said still I must erge you to understand this basic fundamentalist christian understanding that we are all sinners!! Even when we are born. The sin that Adam commited is carried down through all his generations. Therefor no one is innocent.
God did not create evil. Even though God has control over everything, God did not make lucifer's rebellion against him. It does not seem logical but that's because we can't understand it. God actions are not limited to our comprehension. A contradiction to us is comprehension to him.

God didn't create evil, and he doesn't control it, yet he is all powerful??? God controls everything, and therefore evil, or he doesn't. So, everything bad that happens to anyone is because of God, but God isn't bad? I'm confused.
God DOES contol evil and bring evil upon people, according to the Bible, sometimes just to win a bet with Satan, as in the story of Job. What a nice guy, that God, torturing and bringing misery upon his best servant, Job, just to win a bet! What a user! God really IS male, isn't He?
1Sa 16:15 And Saul's servants said unto him, Behold now, an evil spirit from God troubleth thee.
2Ki 21:12 Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Behold, I [am] bringing [such] evil upon Jerusalem and Judah, that whosoever heareth of it, both his ears shall tingle
Neh 13:18 Did not your fathers thus, and did not our God bring all this evil upon us, and upon this city? yet ye bring more wrath upon Israel by profaning the sabbath.
Jer 44:2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Ye have seen all the evil that I have brought upon Jerusalem, and upon all the cities of Judah;and, behold, this day they [are] a desolation, and no man dwelleth therein,

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by redstang281, posted 12-11-2001 10:27 PM redstang281 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by joz, posted 12-18-2001 7:24 AM nator has replied
 Message 81 by redstang281, posted 12-18-2001 7:37 AM nator has replied

  
joz
Inactive Member


Message 79 of 108 (877)
12-18-2001 7:24 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by nator
12-18-2001 1:41 AM


quote:
Originally posted by schrafinator:
God DOES control evil and bring evil upon people, according to the Bible, sometimes just to win a bet with Satan, as in the story of Job. What a nice guy, that God, torturing and bringing misery upon his best servant, Job, just to win a bet! What a user! God really IS male, isn't He?
Hey, as a male I resent that!!!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by nator, posted 12-18-2001 1:41 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by nator, posted 12-26-2001 1:58 AM joz has not replied

  
redstang281
Inactive Member


Message 80 of 108 (878)
12-18-2001 7:28 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by joz
12-17-2001 1:43 PM


[b] [QUOTE] I argued that either it is not impossible but improbable not to sin OR we have no free will in the theologically important area of committing sin or not...
Answer the argument please....
[/b][/QUOTE]
I have answered it many, many, many times, and very understandibly.
But if you want to look at it another way the Lord can see into the future so he knows what we're going to do in our life. However, because he knows what we're going to do, doesn't mean he makes us do it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by joz, posted 12-17-2001 1:43 PM joz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Mister Pamboli, posted 12-18-2001 5:40 PM redstang281 has not replied
 Message 84 by joz, posted 12-19-2001 1:16 PM redstang281 has not replied

  
redstang281
Inactive Member


Message 81 of 108 (879)
12-18-2001 7:37 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by nator
12-18-2001 1:41 AM


[b] [QUOTE] God DOES contol evil and bring evil upon people, according to the Bible, sometimes just to win a bet with Satan, as in the story of Job. What a nice guy, that God, torturing and bringing misery upon his best servant, Job, just to win a bet! What a user! God really IS male, isn't He?
[/b][/QUOTE]
Our sin has brought the evil into the world. God allows evil to punish us for our sins.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by nator, posted 12-18-2001 1:41 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by Mister Pamboli, posted 12-18-2001 5:49 PM redstang281 has not replied
 Message 86 by nator, posted 12-26-2001 1:55 AM redstang281 has not replied
 Message 88 by nator, posted 12-26-2001 2:01 AM redstang281 has not replied

  
Mister Pamboli
Member (Idle past 7578 days)
Posts: 634
From: Washington, USA
Joined: 12-10-2001


Message 82 of 108 (902)
12-18-2001 5:40 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by redstang281
12-18-2001 7:28 AM


[QUOTE]Originally posted by redstang281:
[b]
But if you want to look at it another way the Lord can see into the future so he knows what we're going to do in our life. However, because he knows what we're going to do, doesn't mean he makes us do it.
[/QUOTE]
I'm sorry redstang, but this is specious nonsense. God, in the common Christian sense, is an infinite being of infinite knowledge. He doesn't "see into" our future from any point in time, but must see our entire history and all history as one.
In other words, in the very act of creation you so passionately invoke, he knows, he understands, all the outcomes of all actions that will ever take place.
He creates the hijacker, knowing he will crash the plane. The hijacker may be free to choose his path, but God knows from the moment of creation, what path he will choose.
If I let my father-in-law drive his car home while drunk (a purely fictitious example, you understand) then there must be a sense in which I am culpable, if I think he MAY injure someone. If I let him, knowing in all certainty, that he will injure someone, then I am culpable indeed.
But God's example is even worse - he doesn't just LET the drunk drive, he lets the car and the drink be invented, knowing the consequences; he lets the pedestrian walk in harms way, knowing the consequences.
And from the moment of creation - or as you would oxymoronically put it - from "before" the moment of creation, he has the power to make it not so.
Worship such a being? Rage against him is the only rational response.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by redstang281, posted 12-18-2001 7:28 AM redstang281 has not replied

  
Mister Pamboli
Member (Idle past 7578 days)
Posts: 634
From: Washington, USA
Joined: 12-10-2001


Message 83 of 108 (903)
12-18-2001 5:49 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by redstang281
12-18-2001 7:37 AM


[QUOTE]Originally posted by redstang281:
[b] Our sin has brought the evil into the world. God allows evil to punish us for our sins.
[/QUOTE]
Circular argument. Sin is presumably an evil.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by redstang281, posted 12-18-2001 7:37 AM redstang281 has not replied

  
joz
Inactive Member


Message 84 of 108 (960)
12-19-2001 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by redstang281
12-18-2001 7:28 AM


[QUOTE]Originally posted by redstang281:
[b] I have answered it many, many, many times, and very understandibly.[/QUOTE]
No you claimed that improbable was the same as impossible (it isn't take a basic course in statistics sometime). you have yet to show that a human has no option but to sin (and you must do this to support your assertion that it is impossible not to sin) if you succeed here you must then explain how this is not mutually exclusive with free will (the concept that we choose to sin or not) you have addressed neither point in any way but to spout a priori that it is impossible and yet we do possess free will....
quote:
But if you want to look at it another way the Lord can see into the future so he knows what we're going to do in our life. However, because he knows what we're going to do, doesn't mean he makes us do it.
To use a concept from quantum mechanics the very act of God observing the future collapses the wave function and predetermines the outcome will be that which was observed... Hence no free will as our actions are predetermined....
[This message has been edited by joz, 12-19-2001]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by redstang281, posted 12-18-2001 7:28 AM redstang281 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by mark24, posted 12-22-2001 5:54 PM joz has not replied

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 5196 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 85 of 108 (1123)
12-22-2001 5:54 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by joz
12-19-2001 1:16 PM


quote:
Originally posted by joz:
To use a concept from quantum mechanics the very act of God observing the future collapses the wave function and predetermines the outcome will be that which was observed... Hence no free will as our actions are predetermined....
[This message has been edited by joz, 12-19-2001]

And that, as they say, was that.
------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by joz, posted 12-19-2001 1:16 PM joz has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 86 of 108 (1287)
12-26-2001 1:55 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by redstang281
12-18-2001 7:37 AM


[QUOTE]Originally posted by redstang281:
[b] Our sin has brought the evil into the world. God allows evil to punish us for our sins.
[/QUOTE]
But Job was the ONLY good and just man in all the land, yet God decided to torment him cruelly to test him.
Job wasn't a sinner. That was my point.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by redstang281, posted 12-18-2001 7:37 AM redstang281 has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 87 of 108 (1288)
12-26-2001 1:58 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by joz
12-18-2001 7:24 AM


quote:
Originally posted by joz:
Hey, as a male I resent that!!!

Sorry. Must have had to deal with one too many needy males at work that day!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by joz, posted 12-18-2001 7:24 AM joz has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 88 of 108 (1289)
12-26-2001 2:01 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by redstang281
12-18-2001 7:37 AM


[QUOTE]Originally posted by redstang281:
[b] Our sin has brought the evil into the world. God allows evil to punish us for our sins.
[/QUOTE]
Also, you did not address my other point that God controls evil and uses evil for his own ends, evidence for which I provided in the form of several Bible quotes.
Please comment.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by redstang281, posted 12-18-2001 7:37 AM redstang281 has not replied

  
Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 5033 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 89 of 108 (1378)
12-30-2001 1:48 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by ChristianityExposed.Com
07-27-2001 1:50 PM


If you do this you may have two illlegit births beyond your hands. I thought we all knew how to raise kids. but s and f did not find out at least this truth from Bill Clinton.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by ChristianityExposed.Com, posted 07-27-2001 1:50 PM ChristianityExposed.Com has not replied

  
Cobra_snake
Inactive Member


Message 90 of 108 (2366)
01-17-2002 11:00 PM


While it may seem like a cheap argument, it is true that if God exists, humans are not (and should not be) intelligent enough to understand everything that he does. You do not have to believe in God to understand that if God exists, we would not be able to fully understand him.
That being said, I also believe many of the supposed contradictions many of you have been raising are not really contradictions at all.
First of all, it has been pointed out that God is unfair in killing innocent babies. There are a few reasons why this is not the case.
1. God did not want the earth to be this way. Although he did create the capacity for evil, he did not force or plan Adam and Eve to sin. They did, and that is the cause for evil in this world. Although God COULD control what evil happens to certain individuals, he probably does not in most cases. This is why terrible things can happen to seeminly helpless individuals. God is not picking on them, the cruel and unfair world is picking on them.
2. The baby would of sinned. God knows what will happen but does not make it happen. This is not a contradiction. God IS all-powerful, but that does not mean he has to excercis his limitless power all the time. Just because God knows what we will (or would) do does not mean he forces us to do it, obviously.
3. Shrafinator brought up the point that because God allows evil to occur, he is evil in nature. This is simply not true. The cause of all evil is NOT God. Just because God created the capacity for evil does not mean he is at fault for the evil that is done.
4. God gives humans a way into an eternity of happiness and love. The baby that died shortly after birth still has an opportunity to live with God in heaven forever. God doesn't seem all that bad to me.
God is not unfair. The world is unfair.
[This message has been edited by Cobra_snake, 01-17-2002]

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by mark24, posted 01-18-2002 7:04 AM Cobra_snake has not replied
 Message 95 by joz, posted 01-22-2002 9:31 AM Cobra_snake has not replied

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 5196 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 91 of 108 (2374)
01-18-2002 7:04 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by Cobra_snake
01-17-2002 11:00 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Cobra_snake:
3. Shrafinator brought up the point that because God allows evil to occur, he is evil in nature. This is simply not true. The cause of all evil is NOT God. Just because God created the capacity for evil does not mean he is at fault for the evil that is done.
God is not unfair. The world is unfair.
[This message has been edited by Cobra_snake, 01-17-2002]

Cobra, if I made my gutter with the potential to leak, it would be my fault when it did leak.
Similarly, God can hardly complain when he creates beings that have the potential to do evil, when they do evil.
That man has free will is irrelevent. God SHOULD have given us free will, minus the ability to do evil. That He neglected to do this is his dripping gutter, His fault.
Mark
------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Cobra_snake, posted 01-17-2002 11:00 PM Cobra_snake has not replied

  
Cobra_snake
Inactive Member


Message 92 of 108 (2395)
01-18-2002 10:58 AM


It looks like you and me have different viewpoints. I don't think God was wrong in creating the capacity for evil. Perhaps I'm wrong, but this is simply a matter of opinion.

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by Brad McFall, posted 01-18-2002 11:52 AM Cobra_snake has not replied
 Message 94 by mark24, posted 01-18-2002 4:18 PM Cobra_snake has not replied

  
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