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Author | Topic: Let's face it... | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
nator Member (Idle past 2170 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: God didn't create evil, and he doesn't control it, yet he is all powerful??? God controls everything, and therefore evil, or he doesn't. So, everything bad that happens to anyone is because of God, but God isn't bad? I'm confused. God DOES contol evil and bring evil upon people, according to the Bible, sometimes just to win a bet with Satan, as in the story of Job. What a nice guy, that God, torturing and bringing misery upon his best servant, Job, just to win a bet! What a user! God really IS male, isn't He? 1Sa 16:15 And Saul's servants said unto him, Behold now, an evil spirit from God troubleth thee. 2Ki 21:12 Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Behold, I [am] bringing [such] evil upon Jerusalem and Judah, that whosoever heareth of it, both his ears shall tingle Neh 13:18 Did not your fathers thus, and did not our God bring all this evil upon us, and upon this city? yet ye bring more wrath upon Israel by profaning the sabbath. Jer 44:2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Ye have seen all the evil that I have brought upon Jerusalem, and upon all the cities of Judah;and, behold, this day they [are] a desolation, and no man dwelleth therein,
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joz Inactive Member |
quote: Hey, as a male I resent that!!!
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redstang281 Inactive Member |
[b] [QUOTE]
I argued that either it is not impossible but improbable not to sin OR we have no free will in the theologically important area of committing sin or not...
Answer the argument please.... [/b][/QUOTE] I have answered it many, many, many times, and very understandibly. But if you want to look at it another way the Lord can see into the future so he knows what we're going to do in our life. However, because he knows what we're going to do, doesn't mean he makes us do it.
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redstang281 Inactive Member |
[b] [QUOTE]
God DOES contol evil and bring evil upon people, according to the Bible, sometimes just to win a bet with Satan, as in the story of Job. What a nice guy, that God, torturing and bringing misery upon his best servant, Job, just to win a bet! What a user! God really IS male, isn't He?
[/b][/QUOTE] Our sin has brought the evil into the world. God allows evil to punish us for our sins.
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Mister Pamboli Member (Idle past 7578 days) Posts: 634 From: Washington, USA Joined: |
[QUOTE]Originally posted by redstang281:
[b] But if you want to look at it another way the Lord can see into the future so he knows what we're going to do in our life. However, because he knows what we're going to do, doesn't mean he makes us do it.[/QUOTE] I'm sorry redstang, but this is specious nonsense. God, in the common Christian sense, is an infinite being of infinite knowledge. He doesn't "see into" our future from any point in time, but must see our entire history and all history as one. In other words, in the very act of creation you so passionately invoke, he knows, he understands, all the outcomes of all actions that will ever take place. He creates the hijacker, knowing he will crash the plane. The hijacker may be free to choose his path, but God knows from the moment of creation, what path he will choose. If I let my father-in-law drive his car home while drunk (a purely fictitious example, you understand) then there must be a sense in which I am culpable, if I think he MAY injure someone. If I let him, knowing in all certainty, that he will injure someone, then I am culpable indeed. But God's example is even worse - he doesn't just LET the drunk drive, he lets the car and the drink be invented, knowing the consequences; he lets the pedestrian walk in harms way, knowing the consequences. And from the moment of creation - or as you would oxymoronically put it - from "before" the moment of creation, he has the power to make it not so. Worship such a being? Rage against him is the only rational response.
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Mister Pamboli Member (Idle past 7578 days) Posts: 634 From: Washington, USA Joined: |
[QUOTE]Originally posted by redstang281:
[b] Our sin has brought the evil into the world. God allows evil to punish us for our sins. [/QUOTE] Circular argument. Sin is presumably an evil.
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joz Inactive Member |
[QUOTE]Originally posted by redstang281:
[b] I have answered it many, many, many times, and very understandibly.[/QUOTE] No you claimed that improbable was the same as impossible (it isn't take a basic course in statistics sometime). you have yet to show that a human has no option but to sin (and you must do this to support your assertion that it is impossible not to sin) if you succeed here you must then explain how this is not mutually exclusive with free will (the concept that we choose to sin or not) you have addressed neither point in any way but to spout a priori that it is impossible and yet we do possess free will....
quote: To use a concept from quantum mechanics the very act of God observing the future collapses the wave function and predetermines the outcome will be that which was observed... Hence no free will as our actions are predetermined.... [This message has been edited by joz, 12-19-2001]
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mark24 Member (Idle past 5196 days) Posts: 3857 From: UK Joined: |
quote: And that, as they say, was that. ------------------Occam's razor is not for shaving with.
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nator Member (Idle past 2170 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
[QUOTE]Originally posted by redstang281:
[b] Our sin has brought the evil into the world. God allows evil to punish us for our sins. [/QUOTE] But Job was the ONLY good and just man in all the land, yet God decided to torment him cruelly to test him. Job wasn't a sinner. That was my point.
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nator Member (Idle past 2170 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Sorry. Must have had to deal with one too many needy males at work that day!
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nator Member (Idle past 2170 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
[QUOTE]Originally posted by redstang281:
[b] Our sin has brought the evil into the world. God allows evil to punish us for our sins. [/QUOTE] Also, you did not address my other point that God controls evil and uses evil for his own ends, evidence for which I provided in the form of several Bible quotes. Please comment.
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Brad McFall Member (Idle past 5033 days) Posts: 3428 From: Ithaca,NY, USA Joined: |
If you do this you may have two illlegit births beyond your hands. I thought we all knew how to raise kids. but s and f did not find out at least this truth from Bill Clinton.
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Cobra_snake Inactive Member |
While it may seem like a cheap argument, it is true that if God exists, humans are not (and should not be) intelligent enough to understand everything that he does. You do not have to believe in God to understand that if God exists, we would not be able to fully understand him.
That being said, I also believe many of the supposed contradictions many of you have been raising are not really contradictions at all. First of all, it has been pointed out that God is unfair in killing innocent babies. There are a few reasons why this is not the case. 1. God did not want the earth to be this way. Although he did create the capacity for evil, he did not force or plan Adam and Eve to sin. They did, and that is the cause for evil in this world. Although God COULD control what evil happens to certain individuals, he probably does not in most cases. This is why terrible things can happen to seeminly helpless individuals. God is not picking on them, the cruel and unfair world is picking on them. 2. The baby would of sinned. God knows what will happen but does not make it happen. This is not a contradiction. God IS all-powerful, but that does not mean he has to excercis his limitless power all the time. Just because God knows what we will (or would) do does not mean he forces us to do it, obviously. 3. Shrafinator brought up the point that because God allows evil to occur, he is evil in nature. This is simply not true. The cause of all evil is NOT God. Just because God created the capacity for evil does not mean he is at fault for the evil that is done. 4. God gives humans a way into an eternity of happiness and love. The baby that died shortly after birth still has an opportunity to live with God in heaven forever. God doesn't seem all that bad to me. God is not unfair. The world is unfair. [This message has been edited by Cobra_snake, 01-17-2002]
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mark24 Member (Idle past 5196 days) Posts: 3857 From: UK Joined: |
quote: Cobra, if I made my gutter with the potential to leak, it would be my fault when it did leak. Similarly, God can hardly complain when he creates beings that have the potential to do evil, when they do evil. That man has free will is irrelevent. God SHOULD have given us free will, minus the ability to do evil. That He neglected to do this is his dripping gutter, His fault. Mark ------------------Occam's razor is not for shaving with.
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Cobra_snake Inactive Member |
It looks like you and me have different viewpoints. I don't think God was wrong in creating the capacity for evil. Perhaps I'm wrong, but this is simply a matter of opinion.
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