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Author Topic:   Charismatic Chaos
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 507 of 531 (871978)
02-17-2020 3:10 AM
Reply to: Message 299 by ringo
01-26-2020 1:13 PM


Lifetime Of Sacrificial Chores
ringo writes:
A logical God could be created and logical angels could be created. But you describe a supposedly "all-powerful" God - who has a powerful rival.
Gods "powerful rival" is humans themselves. Think about it. We either believe in Him and then make money off of His name or we decide that He is illogical and seek to throw Him away. You have presented the idea that God is unnecessary and that we have to do it all ourselves anyway. jar has added the ideas that humans create their own gods and that even if a real One existed he likely would think no higher of us than pond scum or space dust. Both of you agree that the message is about what *we* do for others. I suppose that if a rival decides to imitate Christ, the rival disappears and there is only Christ. If, however, Christianity is only about what we do, it is at best another chore with no benefits for being a member.

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 299 by ringo, posted 01-26-2020 1:13 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 508 by jar, posted 02-17-2020 7:49 AM Phat has replied
 Message 509 by ringo, posted 02-17-2020 10:40 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 510 of 531 (872021)
02-18-2020 4:09 PM
Reply to: Message 509 by ringo
02-17-2020 10:40 AM


Re: Lifetime Of Sacrificial Chores
Phat writes:
Gods "powerful rival" is humans themselves.
ringo writes:
That's what I keep telling you but you seem to think "Satan" is a real entity; you keep talking about "spiritual warfare".
As I have mentioned before, I once had a definite encounter with an unknown chorus of voices. There were but 4 of us present. To this day the event is etched in our minds.
Phat writes:
You have presented the idea that God is unnecessary and that we have to do it all ourselves anyway.
ringo writes:
That idea is so obviously true that it shouldn't have to be presented at all.
Perhaps the idea that we have to do the work ourselves is obvious, but the idea that belief (and/or God) is unnecessary is very much a hot button topic. I have recently found a really good podcast where the host debates a number of Christians.
Dogma Debate
Comedian and actor, David Smalley, respectfully invites believers to provide evidence for their religions, crystal healing, ouija boards, witchcraft, politics, or other worldviews. Though some of the discussions are over 3 hours in length and there are no audio transcripts, I plan on starting a topic on this show and attempting to present some of the best moments that I heard.
Phat writes:
If, however, Christianity is only about what we do, it is at best another chore with no benefits for being a member.
There are certainly no benefits beyond what non-Christians have. But the benefits of doing unto others should be pretty obvious.
As of this writing, I am unconvinced that Christians do not benefit from the Communion beyond what non-Christians have. It will likely be hard if not impossible to prove, but it is the way it *should* be, in my opinion. Otherwise, God has no need to interact with our culture.

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 509 by ringo, posted 02-17-2020 10:40 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 511 by jar, posted 02-18-2020 4:16 PM Phat has replied
 Message 517 by ringo, posted 02-18-2020 7:29 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 512 of 531 (872023)
02-18-2020 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 508 by jar
02-17-2020 7:49 AM


Re: Lifetime Of Sacrificial Chores
jar writes:
... it's far easier and far more lucrative to sell the "Friends with Benefits" Christianity.
The benefits though are in creating a better world for those, the least of these my brothers.
You would then ask me what the evidence showed.
I see the blatant dishonesty of the televangelists. I see the spiritual blindness over the US Christian church who are a majority Right-Wing manifest destiny +priosperity gospel+America as a "Christian" nation when in fact Whose nation? Which communities? The fault lines of the new Christian nationalism seems to be the fruit of political Christianity.
Still, the Christian churches that I identify with are small conservative hamlets like Pastor ICANTS church.
You likely would label them as willfully ignorant. Im not convinced that their connection with God is a myth, however.
You are right in that I have essentially imagined God to be the way I want. Like I told ringo, a God Who does not interact or bless worshippers in any measurable way should be thrown away, as you say.
And I would then confess that I really don't want to have to put in a lot of hard work and obey some vague "charge". Just leave me alone, give me my social security, and let me die.

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 508 by jar, posted 02-17-2020 7:49 AM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 513 of 531 (872024)
02-18-2020 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 511 by jar
02-18-2020 4:16 PM


Re: There you go putting limits on God yet again.
jar writes:
Why would God need to interact with our culture?
because some of us need Him. We don't have the heart to sacrifice everything as part of some vague "charge". We need some charge benefits ourselves rather than being told we have to follow the Jesus of the book and take up laCrosse.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 511 by jar, posted 02-18-2020 4:16 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 514 by jar, posted 02-18-2020 5:03 PM Phat has replied
 Message 515 by Tangle, posted 02-18-2020 5:29 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 516 of 531 (872037)
02-18-2020 7:25 PM
Reply to: Message 514 by jar
02-18-2020 5:03 PM


Re: There you go putting limits on God yet again.
Otherwise we may as well throw Him away. Do you seriously think im stupid enough to believe that GOD loves pond scum as much as humans? What an all inclusive heneric form of a Deity that would be.

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 514 by jar, posted 02-18-2020 5:03 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 518 by jar, posted 02-18-2020 7:42 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 519 by ringo, posted 02-18-2020 9:12 PM Phat has replied
 Message 528 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-20-2020 1:02 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 520 of 531 (872074)
02-19-2020 3:19 PM
Reply to: Message 519 by ringo
02-18-2020 9:12 PM


Re: There you go putting limits on God yet again.
Phat writes:
What an all-inclusive generic form of a Deity that would be.
ringo writes:
The question you should be asking yourself is why would God NOT be all-inclusive?
I believe that God chose to focus on humans rather than simply all lifeforms on the planet. Jesus did not simply sit around sniffing flowers and relishing in the things His Father created. One can speculate, I suppose.
jar always asks me why GOD should value me any higher than pond scum.
Perhaps my opponents are right. Perhaps I am anthropomorphizing the Creator of all seen and unseen.

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 519 by ringo, posted 02-18-2020 9:12 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 521 by ringo, posted 02-19-2020 3:24 PM Phat has replied
 Message 529 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-20-2020 1:20 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 522 of 531 (872079)
02-19-2020 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 521 by ringo
02-19-2020 3:24 PM


Re: There you go putting limits on God yet again.
I had to look that up!
Google Dictionary writes:
Obsequious-obedient or attentive to an excessive or servile degree.
servile ingratiating unctuous sycophantic fawning toadying oily oleaginous greasy groveling cringing toadyish sycophantish subservient submissive slavish abject Uriah Heepish slimy bootlicking smarmy sucky soapy brown-nosing arse-licking bum-sucking kiss-ass ass-kissing
Good question. He may need a few of us like Faith, though because she needs work and yet has a lot of knowledge of the apologists and experts throughout the church historically and currently. Perhaps everyone may end up at a royal banquet stunned by all of the other guests so unworthy of being there. Of course, we ourselves would hopefully be amazed that we made it in. You likely would size up the Host and decide whether you even wanted to stay!

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 521 by ringo, posted 02-19-2020 3:24 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 523 by ringo, posted 02-20-2020 10:57 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 524 of 531 (872114)
02-20-2020 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 523 by ringo
02-20-2020 10:57 AM


Re: There you go putting limits on God yet again.
ringo writes:
Your Host is saying, "Be there or else!"
Nonsense. He might at worst say "You don't wanna miss this!:
You can lead a horse to (living) water but you can't make him drink.
There are just some events and communions that reality dictates can and should not be missed. I fear that were you to define a God of your approval, He likely would be all laid back and simply say to people to show up if they wanted there were free loonies and toonies and lots of food but that they were entirely free to be otherwise engaged. Your idea of God is that of an optional relationship and communion. My idea is not that of an autocrat but rather of a concerned deity who knows that we need the inoculation His communion provides.

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 523 by ringo, posted 02-20-2020 10:57 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 525 by ringo, posted 02-20-2020 11:33 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 526 of 531 (872116)
02-20-2020 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 525 by ringo
02-20-2020 11:33 AM


Re: There you go putting limits on God yet again.
I suppose it *could* suggest that. Remember the Israelites? How they knew what their responsibilities were before God and yet they kept slipping? Worshipping other things? getting greedy for the spoils of war? Maybe even fudging a bit and putting words in Gods' mouth? Words such as "kill all of the enemies women and children...(except rape the women first) We can get back to your assertion that without evidence there is no reason to believe in God....and we can discuss the nature and character of such a God should One exist...yet you seem to stand on the idea that He is unnecessary. Maybe that is so for you. He gives you that freedom. And to be honest, Christians ourselves are not often his best advertisement. We all fall short. None of us does enough. His banquet is symbolic, however. It is about food that nourishes the soul. if you can find it without religion, more power to you...but it is my belief that you will never find it without Him, since He is the bread of life. he is not standing in a lineup with a spaghetti monster, Buddha, and Muhammed.
And I don't care what the character in the book said about giving away everything as a theme. Ultimately it is true but noone expects us to feed and clothe everyone and leaving ourselves with nothing. You yourself don't even believe that He exists, yet you would embrace a socialist society. fact is, there isn't one yet and anyone who sells everything and waits for their comrades to help them will end up freezing to death while they wait.

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 525 by ringo, posted 02-20-2020 11:33 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 527 by ringo, posted 02-20-2020 12:21 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 530 by Tangle, posted 02-20-2020 1:38 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 531 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-20-2020 2:00 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
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