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Author Topic:   Testing The Christian Apologists
Phat
Member
Posts: 15797
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 676 of 853 (872077)
02-19-2020 4:13 PM
Reply to: Message 675 by ringo
02-19-2020 3:33 PM


Humina Humina Humina...Who Do You Trust?
Let's take this step by step.
ringo writes:

I have never told you what you should do. I have only told you what Jesus told you to do.
Indeed you have. You are quite good at quoting the book in context. You have also said before that all available evidence shows that we must do it ourselves as there are no Gods or Angels out mowing the lawn, feeding hungry people, or delivering the paper.
ringo writes:

As I've told you before, I don't even believe that Jesus existed. Why would I follow His advice any more than I would follow Fred Flintstone's advice? I'm just wondering why you claim to believe in Him yet you ridicule His advice.
I question His advice since he expects me to do it all myself. If some bumpkin came down the sidewalk and told me to mow my lawn and weed my garden, I would ask him what leg he had to stand on in ordering me to do such stuff. If a character in a book tells me to sell everything and trust that I will be taken care of, I might expect him to offer me land in Florida next. Right next to Benny Hinn's place.
ringo writes:

But the topic is Testing the Christian Apologists. Are you admitting that they've failed the test?
If anything, listening to them has caused me to think about whether I believe the validity of the message that they say. I have been listening to a variety of people some of whom qualify as educated or authoritative and some just laymen as many of us at EvC are also. Some podcasts of late:
Ask Science Mike
Dogma Debate
Oh and The Friendly Atheist: Ep. 301 - Even "Christianity Today" Wants Trump Gone

Trusting Jesus--as a living presence and not simply a character in a book--takes work. How do I know it is Him talking to me and not my own conscience or something even worse? How do I know that He doesn't talk to me through you? Or jar? To be honest, I have grown a bit cold of most of the Christian Apologists, and have been listening to many audio podcasts of random people whom I never knew. I suppose you could say that I am listening to more and more people in order to decide for myself what a consensus might involve and whether God would be part of that communion or whether it would be profitable to be a secular humanist?

“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 675 by ringo, posted 02-19-2020 3:33 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 677 by jar, posted 02-19-2020 4:29 PM Phat has responded
 Message 688 by ringo, posted 02-20-2020 10:39 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33637
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 5.8


(1)
Message 677 of 853 (872080)
02-19-2020 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 676 by Phat
02-19-2020 4:13 PM


Re: Humina Humina Humina...Who Do You Trust?
Phat writes:

I suppose you could say that I am listening to more and more people in order to decide for myself what a consensus might involve and whether God would be part of that communion or whether it would be profitable to be a secular humanist?


And there it is yet again Phat!

The question should not be what is the profitable thing to do rather what is the RIGHT thing to do.

Fight the GOOD fight.

Run the race.

“And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.”

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 676 by Phat, posted 02-19-2020 4:13 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 678 by Phat, posted 02-19-2020 4:44 PM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15797
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 678 of 853 (872082)
02-19-2020 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 677 by jar
02-19-2020 4:29 PM


Re: Humina Humina Humina...Who Do You Trust?
OK, I will ask you the same question I asked ringo. Would you sell all that you had to feed the poor? Why or why not?

Do you feel that you do enough? Do you ruin the race with every bit of strength left in your old bones?

The question should not be what is the profitable thing to do rather what is the RIGHT thing to do.
Would god expect us to take a loss? Is doing the right thing often unprofitable? And how much are we ready to lose?

“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 677 by jar, posted 02-19-2020 4:29 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 679 by jar, posted 02-19-2020 5:34 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33637
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 679 of 853 (872085)
02-19-2020 5:34 PM
Reply to: Message 678 by Phat
02-19-2020 4:44 PM


Re: Humina Humina Humina...Who Do You Trust?
Phat writes:

OK, I will ask you the same question I asked ringo. Would you sell all that you had to feed the poor? Why or why not?

Do you feel that you do enough? Do you ruin the race with every bit of strength left in your old bones?


I try. I usually fail but still I try. And if you actually read what I posted you will see that it says “And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.”

We have been over this before Phat.

The charge is to do what is right. Not because there is some profit but because it is the right thing to do.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 678 by Phat, posted 02-19-2020 4:44 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 680 by Coragyps, posted 02-19-2020 8:43 PM jar has responded
 Message 682 by Phat, posted 02-19-2020 9:26 PM jar has responded

  
Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


(2)
Message 680 of 853 (872088)
02-19-2020 8:43 PM
Reply to: Message 679 by jar
02-19-2020 5:34 PM


Re: Humina Humina Humina...Who Do You Trust?
As Mammy Yokum famously said, “ Good is better than evil becuz it’s nicer!”

This message is a reply to:
 Message 679 by jar, posted 02-19-2020 5:34 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 681 by jar, posted 02-19-2020 9:24 PM Coragyps has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33637
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 681 of 853 (872090)
02-19-2020 9:24 PM
Reply to: Message 680 by Coragyps
02-19-2020 8:43 PM


Re: Humina Humina Humina...Who Do You Trust?
If you can't obey Pansy Hunks ..., well, let's just say obeying Pansy Hunks beats all the alternatives.

Edited by jar, : appalin, jess appalin


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 680 by Coragyps, posted 02-19-2020 8:43 PM Coragyps has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15797
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 682 of 853 (872091)
02-19-2020 9:26 PM
Reply to: Message 679 by jar
02-19-2020 5:34 PM


Re: Humina Humina Humina...Who Do You Trust?
jar writes:

The charge is to do what is right. Not because there is some profit but because it is the right thing to do.
But what if the bill wiped out whats left of the surplus nest egg that the American Middle class has earned over the last 80 years? Trashing the resources of one group of people who indirectly benefitted from yet did not initiate the privileges would be fixing some inequities yet creating others! If you really think that we sons and daughters of the greatest generation that fought World War II are gonna become reparative kum ba yah socialists because someone says its the right thing to do you must have more faith in how we end up faring than we do.

Edited by Phat, : Spelling


“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 679 by jar, posted 02-19-2020 5:34 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 683 by jar, posted 02-19-2020 9:30 PM Phat has responded
 Message 689 by ringo, posted 02-20-2020 10:45 AM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33637
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 683 of 853 (872092)
02-19-2020 9:30 PM
Reply to: Message 682 by Phat
02-19-2020 9:26 PM


Re: Humina Humina Humina...Who Do You Trust?
Phat writes:

but what if the bill wiped out whats left of the surplus nest egg that the American Middle class has earned over the last 80 years? Trashing the resources of one group of people who indirectly benefitted from yet did not initiate the privileges would be fixing some inequities yet creating others! If you really think that we sons and daughters of the greatest generation that fought World War II are gonna become reparative kum ba yah socialist because someone says its the right thing to do you must have more faith in how we end up faring than we do.


Yawn. YAWN!

Phat, the bill will get paid, that is simply a fact.

If you wish to pay the bill through pain and suffering, then that's fine.

But the bill will get paid. There is absolutely no way around that fact.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 682 by Phat, posted 02-19-2020 9:26 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 684 by Phat, posted 02-20-2020 3:14 AM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15797
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 684 of 853 (872096)
02-20-2020 3:14 AM
Reply to: Message 683 by jar
02-19-2020 9:30 PM


Re: Humina Humina Humina...Who Do You Trust?
Who is gonna collect it? What if we turn our bank money into gold and refuse to pay out a dime?

“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 683 by jar, posted 02-19-2020 9:30 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 685 by jar, posted 02-20-2020 7:29 AM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33637
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 685 of 853 (872102)
02-20-2020 7:29 AM
Reply to: Message 684 by Phat
02-20-2020 3:14 AM


Re: Humina Humina Humina...Who Do You Trust?
Phat writes:

Who is gonna collect it? What if we turn our bank money into gold and refuse to pay out a dime?


Then you will definitely pay in pain.

But you will pay the bill.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 684 by Phat, posted 02-20-2020 3:14 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 686 by Phat, posted 02-20-2020 10:16 AM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15797
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 686 of 853 (872103)
02-20-2020 10:16 AM
Reply to: Message 685 by jar
02-20-2020 7:29 AM


Was I Searching For Truth Or For Reassurance?
Arnt we really already paying the bill? Years ago in the middle of the aberration period, wages kept pace with productivity. Somewhere around 1990, this ceased happening. The wealthiest quadrant took off and left the other three economic groups in the dust. Its almost as if the American Dream became a reality only for the rich or upper-middle class. But we are in the wrong topic for this. It is relevant only in the fact that as I examine these issues, my ideas of what Christianity should be and what it actually is, my worries and concerns about money(security--also a God issue)our discussions about my charge in life(balanced against my perceived entitlements) ...all of these issues are what spurred me into starting this topic in the first place. I was looking for a voice I could trust, mainly yet also a voice that told me what I wanted to hear and calmed my fears and anxiety.

You once asked me rhetorically why GOD should love me any more than pond scum. My answer is that GOD, to me is Jesus and Jesus, being fully human, surely loves His fellow humans more than the mold around a leaky faucet. What I need to now honestly face is why I feel so unable to help others and why I expect help from them...Jesus included.

“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 685 by jar, posted 02-20-2020 7:29 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 687 by jar, posted 02-20-2020 10:38 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33637
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 687 of 853 (872105)
02-20-2020 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 686 by Phat
02-20-2020 10:16 AM


Re: Was I Searching For Truth Or For Reassurance?
Phat writes:

Arnt we really already paying the bill?


Yup. And by choice as well. We decide to suffer.

Phat, the information is out there; it is readily available.

There are studies on the relative quality of life by nationality.

There are studies on the relative quality of health care by nationality.

There are studies on the relative cost of health care by nationality.

There are studies on the relative quality of education by nationality.

There are studies of life expectancy by nationality.

There are studies of wealth disparity by nationality.

All the info is already there.

Look at the nations that rank higher than the US in those factors.

What do they do differently?

Should we learn what works and try to emulate those processes?

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 686 by Phat, posted 02-20-2020 10:16 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19379
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 6.3


Message 688 of 853 (872106)
02-20-2020 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 676 by Phat
02-19-2020 4:13 PM


Re: Humina Humina Humina...Who Do You Trust?
Phat writes:

I question His advice since he expects me to do it all myself.

Look what you wrote in the previous paragraph: "You have also said before that all available evidence shows that we must do it ourselves as there are no Gods or Angels out mowing the lawn, feeding hungry people, or delivering the paper." You know that's true.

Phat writes:

If some bumpkin came down the sidewalk and told me to mow my lawn and weed my garden, I would ask him what leg he had to stand on in ordering me to do such stuff.

So Jesus is just some bumpkin on the sidewalk to you.

Phat writes:

If a character in a book tells me to sell everything and trust that I will be taken care of, I might expect him to offer me land in Florida next. Right next to Benny Hinn's place.

Indeed, that would be the appropriate reaction. So why do you trust the voices in your head more?

Phat writes:

Trusting Jesus--as a living presence and not simply a character in a book--takes work.

It must be the voices in your head telling you that because the character in the book told you to have faith like a little child.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 676 by Phat, posted 02-19-2020 4:13 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19379
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 6.3


(1)
Message 689 of 853 (872108)
02-20-2020 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 682 by Phat
02-19-2020 9:26 PM


Re: Humina Humina Humina...Who Do You Trust?
Phat writes:

But what if the bill wiped out whats left of the surplus nest egg that the American Middle class has earned over the last 80 years?

It isn't about the whole American middle class. It's an individual message. If you personally do the best you can do, nobody's going to blame you for destroying the whole American middle class.

"I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 682 by Phat, posted 02-19-2020 9:26 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 690 by Phat, posted 02-21-2020 10:13 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15797
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 690 of 853 (872187)
02-21-2020 10:13 PM
Reply to: Message 689 by ringo
02-20-2020 10:45 AM


Re: Humina Humina Humina...Who Do You Trust?
You are right. It's about me. My own Mom told me that it was OK for me to look out for myself because no one else would. I just think that it's unfair that suddenly the whole rest of the world gives us the bill for virtually everything that needs fixing. And then you come along and try and remind the Christians what Jesus wants them to do, even though to you He is but a character in a book. Im not sure how I will choose to behave in the coming years, but I most certainly will try my best to take care of myself. I'm not looking to become wealthy. I just want to survive.

And no Christian Apologists have anything for me. It's the same old speech with them. Trust God and since us your spare change. And its not like they just want my spare change. They are trying to sell me the idea that the more I give them, the better blessd I will be! I say hogwash!

“The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.”Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
“As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.”-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 689 by ringo, posted 02-20-2020 10:45 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 691 by Tangle, posted 02-22-2020 2:49 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 692 by jar, posted 02-22-2020 8:29 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 693 by ringo, posted 02-22-2020 10:43 AM Phat has responded

  
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