Biblical Support for the Pre-Tribulation Rapture

I keep being surprised that I am no longer confused by the strangest scriptures such as the Book of Revelation. I 've often felt I'll just never get it, the imagery is too strange, but now it's starting to make sense. Even getting clearer with this thread on the subject. PaulK will never see it my way I suppose but the more I hear from some teachers on the subject, and read through the book, the clearer it gets.I've certainly heard presentations of this point of view over the years but I never had any certainty about the truth of them. The only way it really starts to make sense is if you have some grasp of the WHOLE Bible and particularly the specific passages in both Old and New Testaments that describe the same things found in the book of Revelation, and there are quite a few of them. John MacArthur is particularly good at pointing them out. Many passages for instance that describe God's judgments in terms of the order of the Four Horsemen of the first four seals, false peace and deception ("Take heed ye be not deceived for False Christs shall come...") war ("You will hear of wars and rumors of war"), famine, pestilences and wild beasts of the earth. Both Old and New Testaments have passages that describe this order of things in God's judgments. Scripture has pointed to this final Day of the Lord in many ways over the millennia.Revelation 6 covers the opening of the first six seals of the scroll which is described by some teachers as the "title deed to the Earth." It belonged to Satan until Jesus died on the Cross and won it back. He now has the authority to open it and unleash the final judgments of God on the Earth.MacArthur calls the first seals the "birth pangs," which I think include the first six seals and cover the first half or three and a half years of the Tribulation period, most of it through humanity. The second half is the Great Tribulation proper or the Day of the Lord in which God Himself directly pours out His wrath on the Earth. This outpouring of natural disasters begins in the opening of the sixth seal but that seems to be regarded more as signs of what is coming than the Great Tribulation proper. At least that is how I read it.

1. First seal is a white horse whose rider carries a bow but no arrows, understood to represent a false peace through religious deception.
2. Second seal is a red horse whose rider is given a great sword, which "takes peace from the Earth" through war and murders.
3. Third seal is black horse whose rider carries a scale for weighing food, representing famine
4. Fourth seal is a pale greenish horse whose rider is Death, closely followed by Hell, which represents disease by pestilences and the beasts of the earth.
5. Fifth seal shows those killed for their belief in God crying out for God's vengeance on their behalf. These show the persecutions that are ongoing. they are told to rest until they are joined by the rest of those yet to be martyred. Presumably the vengeance will come in the Great Tribulation as part of the judgments of the seventh seal.
6. Sixth seal shows dramatic shakings of the earth and heavens as "stars" fall from heaven, sun goes black, moon appears as blood etc. All images found in other parts of scripture, signs related to the Tribulation before the second coming of Christ. Then we see the kings, leaders, other great men of the earth hiding in the mountains and asking the rocks to fall on them:
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   Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

So the first six seals are all described in the sixth chapter of Revelation. John MacArthur thinks the midpoint of the Tribulation period comes with the fifth seal of those martyred by persecution, but I think this last sentence of the sixth seal, about how "the great day of his wrath is come" pretty clearly indicates that the last half of the Tribulation or the Great Tribulation doesn't begin until the opening of the seventh seal.MacArthur refers to the first seals as "birth pangs" before the birth which will be the return of Jesus, an often-repeated reference to the time of the end throughout scripture. So it's not the GREAT Tribulation though it is the first part of the seven year Tribulation period. I think it's pretty clear that the Great Tribulation starts with the opening of the seventh seal which follows the six seals of Chapter 6.But first there is Chapter 7 which shows 144,000 men of the twelve tribes of israel being sealed by God for what is understood to be the role of worldwide preaching of the gospel. Then we see a "great multitude" of people in heaven praising God, who are "those who came out of Great Tribulation." If, as we understand it, the Church has been raptured before the start of all these events of the seven-year Tribulation then these are a different group of believers, who have become believers during this time.And then in Chapter 8 the seventh seal is opened and the Great Tribulation begins.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

The question came up earlier in this discussion who it is who will reign with Christ in the Millennial Kingdom. PaulK said only the martyrs mentioned in Revelation who come out of the Great Tribulation. I've always heard the Church will rule and reign with Christ so I wanted to find evidence for that. I found plenty of statements about it, but not the scripture references for evidence of it. Those said to reign are the Church, The Old Testament saints AND the martyrs of the Great Tribulation. Finally I found John MacArthur giving the scriptural evidence in this teaching on Revelation 20. He lists them from about 55:00, but if you want to hear the scriptures behind the list start about 48:00.
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So as I say in the previous post I am finally getting a handle on the Book of Revelation. I now understand that this is because the Pre-Tribulation Rapture point of view is so logical and orderly. It requires reading Revelation simply, chronologically, as the unfolding of one event after another.I'd managed to get pretty confused by trying to understand some of the other systems of interpretation of the end times scriptures, such as Amillennialism which is the interpretation favored by the Reformed churches. Since I appreciate the Reformed theology over all the others I assumed that Amillennialism would be the best view of eschatology. But I had to reject it, I forget all the reasons why, it just wasn't making any sense.That didn't make the Pre-Trib Rapture Premillennial view the obvious choice by any means. I just kept having all kinds of questions about it, some of which I've mentioned on this thread. It's taken this study we're into now, and the fact that there are many MacArthur teachings available at You Tube that weren't there until recently, for me to finally get a handle on it. I now see the Pre Trib view as the only sensible reading of the scripture. It is still necessary to struggle with the odd imagery of Revelation but that's mostly a matter of starting to get an understanding of how it's used in the rest of scripture. Otherwise, just reading it in order, without allegorizing or spiritualizing any of it, just reading it straight, it is beginning to come together.I skipped over the Great Tribulation to the Millennial Kingdom because that was particularly confusing to me. After hearing a few talks on it that too is falling into place. I don't have a grip on all the events but the order of things is clear now:First, the Church is raptured to heaven, and the Tribulation begins. Does it begin with a covenant made between the Anticrhist and Israel? Well I keep hearing that but it isn't in the Book of Revelation as far as I know, so that's something I still have to sort through.Then, after the Great Tribulation which lasts seven years, kills a lot of people and rearranges a lot of the Earth, Christ returns at the Second Coming and the Church comes with him.All the saints of the Old Testament and the Great Tribulation are resurrected and now have glorified bodies, join with the Church, and the Millennial Kingdom begins, with all the saints ruling with Christ over a renovated Earth.Satan is bound for a thousand years. Those who are still alive after the Tribulation are still in their normal human bodies and will populate the Earth, and it will be a perfect Earth, the recovery of Eden. MacArthur describes that in the above talk.But although the people are believers they are also fallen, not having glorified bodies, and over time some of their offspring become rebels against Christ. At the end of the Millennium Satan is released for the purpose of leading them into the final rebellion. Christ conquers and finally the Eternal Kingdom comes.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

There is nothing to contradict the reign of the martyrs, only other bodies of saints to add to their number, which are the Church and the Old Testament believers and one other group mentioned that I don't recognize. The point is it's the SAINTS, those who are believers who are resurrected into their final glorified bodies, who rule and reignwith Christ.Yes, if you keep taking it out of context John's being called up to heaven doesn't seem very convincing as a representation of the Rapture. I thought it untenable too at first. I've had to grow into this whole system and now it's the only thing it COULD mean.Also, MacArthur is far from the only one to hold this view. I've also been listening to a Gil Rugh at Sermon Audio on the Pre Trib Rapture and he's very good too. There are others but I'm trying to find the clearest presentations for now. MacArthur is a very gifted teacher and is VERY clear even when I don't agree with things he says.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

I really wish some true Christians would tell Trump he's got the wrong "Christians" advising him. Not only is she out of line since there is not to be a female pastor of a church but Paula White teaches the false Prosperity Gospel and is part of the theologically false charismatic movement that has such false visions as she says she had.. I can hope that she also manages to get across the true gospel and I can hope that overrides her glaring false teaching but all I can do is hope and it may be that she's hopelessly up to her ears in the Great Apostasy of the last days.AbE: I don't know how this will all play out at the Rapture. Will she be in the Rapture because somehow she DOES believe the true gospel and that will override her errors, or what? I often doubt my own salvation because of my sinfulness but I hold out hope that God will grant me "repentance unto salvation" and I know I've been born again too. Still I'm not pure and I know it and worry. But can a false teacher be saved?Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

True. Well at least maybe we can get the gospel across to some of the people we love, and maybe we will be mercifully beheaded rather than have to starve to death (although I really wouldn't mind anything that causes me to lose weight)_.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Seventeen years to be exact, almost eighteen. I have a stepson your age. No, I don't know when it's going to happen, but I'm amazed I've lived this long and I could very well live much longer too. I could be wrong but I do think I could very well be part of the Rapture. Why would you be expecting that sort of thing? I'm not. According to Revelation, though, uncountable millions are going to be saved during the Tribulation period. The hard way for sure, since many will be martyred and others will be killed by natural disasters and other things, but saved nevertheless. Some number of people will also believe and not be killed. They'll get to go alive into the Millennium, ruled over by Christ for a thousand years. Pretty much a restoration of conditions in Eden, with Satan out of the way and the best that fallen nature can do will be given free course.I only recently got as convinced as I am of the Pre Trib Rapture interpretation. I've been in suspension about parts of it for a long time, and it's really JohnMacArthur's series on Revelation at You Tube that has resolved a lot of my doubts.That' hasn't stopped me from expecting the Rapture soon anyway, even without understanding all the reasoning about it. We just keep seeing things getting worse, or a lot of people I know do, maybe you don't. Just generally worse in the world from a Christian point of view. Oh we're having prosperity, I think Trump is a good thing for America, but that doesn't mean I think things in general are getting better in any way that would put off the Rapture.And the Rapture is the beginning of the end, followed by the Day of the Lord. Even if there is a pause between Rapture and Tribulation, it isn't going to be a long pause, maybe weeks, maybe not even that long. Supposedly there is to be a covenant of peace made between the man called the Antichrist and Israel, but that isn't in Revelation and I'm going to have to hear more to see how that fits in.And then we're supposed to have a peaceful prosperous time for a while too. Can't be too long since the whole Tribulation period is only going to last seven years and the GREAT Tribultion which is the outpouring of God's wrath, won't start until the middle of it, at three and a half years. After that peace which is represented by the white horse of Revelation 6, we have the red horse which is war, then the black horse which is famine and then the greenish horse which is death by things like pestilences. And all that is to happen during the first three and a half years. Even though I'm getting a much better idea of all these things it's still sketchy and I'll have to go through it all again if I want to get more specifics.I have no idea when all this will begin, when the Rapture will occur, we're not supposed to know, but it feels close, that's all. It's felt close for many years and it keeps feeling closer. I think those scriptures are for specific people in specific situations, not general teachings for all believers. If you have no natural source of income then you have to be prepared to put all your trust in God every minute to sustain you, and you have to be very sure that God is calling you to that extreme way of life. Remember the other scripture, "God loves a cheerful giver." There's no point in giving all your money away if you aren't completely happy about it, completely certain it's the life you are prepared to live. That would put you in the wrong too. Becoming dependent on others is certainly not what Jesus meant.AbE: The only thing we are all specifically called to is the tithe, and some churches cdispute that we are called to that since it's not mentioned in the New Testament. Doesn't seem to me it has anything to do with the political spectrum, it's a matter of understanding what the scripture really means and if you listen too much to ringo or jar you're going to get yourself really confused. Neither of them knows what he's talking about. IMHO.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Sounds like the Pre-Trib Rapture to me. The only one that makes sense IMHO.I'm still listening to MacArthur's series on Revelation, but I also take time out to hear other teachers on the subject. If Rhodes is at You Tube I'll check him out. Missler gets a little... "mysto-wacko" at times but he's pretty good if you take some of it with a big grain of salt.

Want to come back to one of the points I started out with, that's my own thought as far as I know: the idea that the Rapture could be very close just because this current Pope is so old. If he's the Antichrist of Revelation it can't be too far away. I accept this idea because the Protestant Reformers made a good biblical case for the Pope as the Antichrist, also because of the calculation that the Roman numerals in "Vicarivs Filii Dei," meaning "In the place of the Son of God" which is as good as saying "Antichrist," which is a title of the Pope, add up to 666.Also there are what can only be regarded as signs given when this latest Pope, Francis, was elected which seem pretty telling to me: lightning hitting St. Peter's when the previous Pope resigned, a seagull sitting on the chimney where the smoke emerges to indicate whether or not a new Pope has been elected, then the fact that he was elected on 3/13/13 at 7:06 PM local time which can be written 6:66. Then there was the incident when two doves Pope Francis released from his Vatican window were instantaneously attacked by a crow and a seagull. Unusual events all, it seems to me. Not to mention that he deviates from Christian doctrine farther than any other Pope I'm aware of, and deserves to be called the "man of lawlessness" who is to be revealed at the beginning of the Tribulation.So if Francis is to be the Antichrist of Revelation, how far off can the Rapture be?The word "Antichrist" is not used there, however, so there is some question if the "prince who is to come" of Daniel 9 is the Antichrist. I think the signs I mentioned have to put Francis in the center of things myself, but there's room for questions. Also the fact that that prince has to be a Roman of the Roman Empire, and the RCC is regarded by some as the continuation of the Roman Empire. In any case Rome is the seat of the RCC, and Revelation has a passage referring to the city on seven hillls whichis always known as Rome.I haven't arrived at that part of the Revelation study yet, but I wanted to repeat my thinking about this at this point.I'm at the beginning of the Great Tribulation Proper, which starts in Revelation 8, and finding it hard to keep track of the events. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Pope Francis is actually 83. nott 86, but of course that is a problem, as I said. I'm just impressed with the signs that came with his election. As PaulK said, of course nobody writes 7:06 as 6:66. but there is no other time that COULD be written that way. Perhaps I'm overly impressed with such oddities, but for now they all fit together in a way that is hard for me to ignore. Time will tell of course. I could die before Francis and miss the whole thing whichever way it goes, but we'll see. I won't even be TOO disappointed if he dies, as long as he isn't dead too long, because the final Antichrist is really Satan and his possessing a dead body would seem miraculous, as if Francis had come back to life.But of course all this does have to happen within a fairly short period of time, that was my point. If he lives to be ninety and the Rapture hasn't come I could cewrtainly be dead by then.Oh I'm not going to bet you, but maybe I should since you once said you are a wealthy man. On second thought, if I win I'll be gone anyway. and your money might help you escape from some of the horrors that are coming. Of course I hope you'll become a believer instead. You'll either die and be one of the favored "multitude" of Revelation 7 who get to rule and reign with Christ in a new glorified body, in the coming Millennial Kingdom, or you'll be in that Kingdom as an ordinary human being in any case. Life will be so much easier than it is now, Eden restored, no wars, no injustices, everyone loving their neighbor, and people will live to be well over a hundred, especially the generations that will be born then. It will be ruled by Christ, however, and since you think this Pope is the most Christian you've seen, you may find that experience rather jarring. Nevertheless, overall it should be lots of fun. I'll have a glorified body whatever on earth that is, but I'll come and say hello. I'll even say hello to PaulK if he should wise up and become a believer.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

"Real?" *Shrug.* I am impressed with the signs as I described them, that's all. Time will tell.

Yeah I like symbolism. There's lots of it in the Bible. Lots of "types" in the Old Testament for instance, that point to Christ among other things. The Book of Revelation is full of symbolism. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Oh not like these. General signs, sure, wars and rumors of wars and all that, but not the kind of signs I've been describing, no. A fair consideration of them should get that across even to you.

Of course I'm not going to bet about such things. I'm posting what seems to make sense but if it doesn't pan out so be it. My faith is certainly not grounded in my own ideas, it's grounded in God's word. I can be wrong but He can't.I would point out in this case, however, that I was going on my own subjective impressions at that other time, and this time all the signs are quite objective as you can see for yourself. That doesn't mean I've got it right this time either, but it isn't the same thing and again, it will either pan out or it won't. I'd point out also that I'm not predicting a date as I did the other time. All I'm saying here is that IF Francis is the Antichrist THEN it's going to have to come fairly soon. If it does I'll be gone -- as will some of your acquaintances no doubt -- and you may have to rethink a few things. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

What? Hey, be fair. I certainly know, and said, I was wrong about the Rosh Hashanah idea of a couple years ago.And yes the signs I've described here ARE objective. You need to appreciate the meaning of that word.But whatever, it's still the case if they pan out they pan out and if they don't, then I WAS WRONG. OK? Again, when I am talking about my own theories I can certainly be wrong. But God can't be wrong so when I am talking about scripture, even if its interpretation is not clear to me or anyone else, it is nevertheless the truth becauase it is God's truth.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

So now I'm into the Great Tribulation proper with MacArthur's study, and finding it hard to keep track of the imagery. I'll try to sketch it out just to have some kind of reference for it.6. I already described Chaper Six which gives the first six seals, the sixth one being stars falling from heaven and other such phenomena heralding the Day of the Lord, or Great Tribulation.7. Chapter 7 is a kind of parenthesis before the Tribulation begins, where we see 144,000 men sealed by God's angels so they won't be harmed in the devastation that is coming. They are of the twelve tribes of israel, 1200 from each tribe, who are understood to be commissioned to preach the gospel as the Tribulation unfolds.In the same chapter we see the "great multitude" from all tribes and nations of the world in heaven waving palm branches and praising God. We understand them to be people who came to faith in Christ by the preaching of the 144,000 we just saw. They are then part of the great company of saints who will be resurrected with glorified bodies before the Millennial Kingom comes.8. Chapter 8 is the opening of the Seventh Seal which is the beginning of the Great Tribulation or Day of the Lord. When opened it reveals seven trumpets, each of which will initiate a judgment on the world. Four of them are given in this chapter. The first brings destruction of a third of the trees and all the green grass. The second brings destruction of a third of the life in the sea and ships on the sea. The third brings destruction of the fresh water bodies of the world, rives and lakes, as they become poisoned and kill people who drinks from them. The fourth brings the darkening of a third of the heavenly bodies, sun, moon and stars, so that they give only two thirds of their light by day and night.Then we hear an angel flying through heaven announcing that the remaining three trumpets will bring "woes" which means even more horrific judgments on the Earth. (MacArthur's Bible translation has "eagle" instead of the angel of my KJV, and I looked it up and the Greek means "angel" but whatever. I don't like MacArthur's NASB, I think it has lousy English among other things.) He says he thinks the angel/eagle announces the woes as warning so that some may repent, and that seems right.9. Chapter 9 then gives us the first two woes, and they are something new in the series of judgments, demons of hell released to torment and kill people, the first being "locusts" released from the "abyss" that look like horses with scorpion tails that cause extreme pain. They are forbidden to kill but they cause great pain over a period of five monts.Then we get the release of four "angels" who are likely demons, who have been bound at the River Eurphrates, and this releases 200 million "horsemen" with breastplates with colors that MacArthur identifies as the colors of Hell, which are associated with the fire, smoke and brimstone or sulfuric fumes that issue from the lion-like mouths of the "horses."By now over half of the world population has been killed by one means or another, and the chapter ends by saying the remainder refused to repent of their sins.10. The tenth chapter with the eleventh are a sidebar apart from the chronology to this point, so the seventh trumpet which is the third woe is on hold. A great angel comes down and announces that this will end the judgments on the Earth. He carries a small scroll which John is told to eat. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.