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Author Topic:   Human Races
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 226 of 274 (87199)
02-18-2004 6:55 AM
Reply to: Message 225 by steelspring1
02-17-2004 4:35 PM


Humans were created, then affected.
steelspring1 writes:
To affect something is different than to create or produce.
I agree, steelspring1. Think about God, the serpant, and the human mind. Even if the Garden of Eden story is a metaphor or a parable, the premise still stands. God created. The serpent affected.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 225 by steelspring1, posted 02-17-2004 4:35 PM steelspring1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 227 by steelspring1, posted 02-18-2004 10:57 AM Phat has replied

  
steelspring1
Inactive Member


Message 227 of 274 (87237)
02-18-2004 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 226 by Phat
02-18-2004 6:55 AM


Re: Humans were created, then affected.
Phatboy , do you think that Adam & Eve represent the humanity, or just a part of it (a race , a particular people)?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by Phat, posted 02-18-2004 6:55 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 228 by Phat, posted 02-18-2004 4:26 PM steelspring1 has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 228 of 274 (87297)
02-18-2004 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 227 by steelspring1
02-18-2004 10:57 AM


Re: Humans were created, then affected.
I think that if there is anything about a human being that is unique apart from being a mere highly evolved animal then I think that at some point in our past, we became intellectual enough to talk with God. To comprehend God. To commune with God. It was at this point that God allowed humanity a free will. Adam and Eve, whether actual people or archtypes of the first cognizant humans had the first chance to obey or disobey God. They disobeyed, and it was not as if it surprised God that they did. I believe that it is all part of a bigger plan and that we as humans are a part of it. We still have an active choice in the outcome of this plan in each of our lives. As the scripture says,
Heb 3:7-9=So, as the Holy Spirit says:
"Today, if you hear his voice,do not harden your hearts as you did in the rebellion, during the time of testing in the desert, where your fathers tested and tried me and for forty years saw what I did.
In the desert, the people resisted change. They resisted growth. They resisted obedience. I believe that today, we have a choice to do something different!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by steelspring1, posted 02-18-2004 10:57 AM steelspring1 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 230 by nator, posted 02-18-2004 9:35 PM Phat has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 229 of 274 (87387)
02-18-2004 9:19 PM
Reply to: Message 225 by steelspring1
02-17-2004 4:35 PM


OK, you are having a difficult time staying on topic.
This is a topic about race, and if they exist.
The most imortant of my questions asked you to list for us all of the different races of the world and what physical, (but most importantly)mental and spiritual aspects are characteristic of each race on the list.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 225 by steelspring1, posted 02-17-2004 4:35 PM steelspring1 has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 230 of 274 (87388)
02-18-2004 9:35 PM
Reply to: Message 228 by Phat
02-18-2004 4:26 PM


Re: Humans were created, then affected.
quote:
I think that if there is anything about a human being that is unique apart from being a mere highly evolved animal then I think that at some point in our past, we became intellectual enough to talk with God. To comprehend God. To commune with God.
Actually, I think what happened first was that we became intellectual enough to wonder where stuff comes from, where it goes, and to start to attempt to make sense of the confusing world around us.
This would include trying to deal with the unique, human condition among all animals of knowing ahead of time that we are going to die, and fearing the unknown.
I think that the drive to "figure stuff out", combined with the fear and confusion inspired by a difficult struggle for existence, and particularly of not knowing what happens when we die, led us to invent supernatural entities.
Basically belief in the supernatural is a comfort to most people; "there is a God who loves me and a heaven to go to when I die." Religion is a form of community and also a way of imposing social control, which is another reason it would have proliferated evolutionarily. Groups are more powerful and safer than individuals.
Anyway, I'm off topic here, but this is my response.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by Phat, posted 02-18-2004 4:26 PM Phat has not replied

  
Gaius Caligula
Inactive Member


Message 231 of 274 (90695)
03-05-2004 10:08 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by crashfrog
10-29-2003 6:53 PM


quote:
Why? Because our racial terms betray an inherent bias - you can't be white unless you're all white, but all it takes is a little black to be black. How could such a ridiculously inconsistent system have any scientifc validity?
Does 'culture' exist? Yes or no?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by crashfrog, posted 10-29-2003 6:53 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 232 by Gaius Caligula, posted 03-05-2004 10:15 PM Gaius Caligula has not replied
 Message 233 by crashfrog, posted 03-05-2004 10:17 PM Gaius Caligula has replied

  
Gaius Caligula
Inactive Member


Message 232 of 274 (90697)
03-05-2004 10:15 PM
Reply to: Message 231 by Gaius Caligula
03-05-2004 10:08 PM


quote:
It isn't really a surprising finding. Consider this: You may be taller than other people. (I am.) In fact your entire family may be taller than the average person where you live, or even your entire block. Does that mean that you're of a different "race"? Not likely. Humans vary, and not one "race" of people varies outside of the normal range of variation for individual humans.
Hey, you might want to hold on a minute. Just what is 'height' after all? Where does short become tall and tall become short? Is 'height' a scientific concept? Let me guess. Its a 'social construct' right. Wait, now that I think about it, 'height' does not even exist!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 231 by Gaius Caligula, posted 03-05-2004 10:08 PM Gaius Caligula has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 234 by crashfrog, posted 03-05-2004 10:19 PM Gaius Caligula has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 233 of 274 (90698)
03-05-2004 10:17 PM
Reply to: Message 231 by Gaius Caligula
03-05-2004 10:08 PM


Does 'culture' exist? Yes or no?
Of course it does. Culture is garbage - it's the effluvium of communities eating, sleeping, screwing, and crapping in proximity. Anytime you put two humans in the same room you'll get culture. Making culture is what humans do.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 231 by Gaius Caligula, posted 03-05-2004 10:08 PM Gaius Caligula has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 235 by Gaius Caligula, posted 03-05-2004 10:20 PM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 234 of 274 (90699)
03-05-2004 10:19 PM
Reply to: Message 232 by Gaius Caligula
03-05-2004 10:15 PM


Just what is 'height' after all?
It's the distance in inches or centimeters between the bottom of your feet and the top of your head. It's easily measured via rulers, tapes, trigonometry (if you're really desparate), or an extremely sensitive barometer.
What units and devices would you use to measure "blackness"?
[This message has been edited by crashfrog, 03-05-2004]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 232 by Gaius Caligula, posted 03-05-2004 10:15 PM Gaius Caligula has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 236 by Gaius Caligula, posted 03-05-2004 10:23 PM crashfrog has replied

  
Gaius Caligula
Inactive Member


Message 235 of 274 (90700)
03-05-2004 10:20 PM
Reply to: Message 233 by crashfrog
03-05-2004 10:17 PM


quote:
Of course it does. Culture is garbage - it's the effluvium of communities eating, sleeping, screwing, and crapping in proximity. Anytime you put two humans in the same room you'll get culture. Making culture is what humans do.
Tell me at what precise point one 'culture' becomes another. What objective 'cultural' trait do all members of a given culture share that excludes all others? While you are at it, tell me where 'hot' becomes 'cold' and the 'past' becomes' the 'future'. I am not convinced that 'time' or 'temperature' exist.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 233 by crashfrog, posted 03-05-2004 10:17 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 237 by crashfrog, posted 03-05-2004 10:24 PM Gaius Caligula has replied

  
Gaius Caligula
Inactive Member


Message 236 of 274 (90701)
03-05-2004 10:23 PM
Reply to: Message 234 by crashfrog
03-05-2004 10:19 PM


quote:
It's the distance in inches or centimeters between the bottom of your feet and the top of your head.
'Inches' and 'centimeters' do not exist naturally. There are human constructs, not objective natural divisions between categories. Inches and centimeters blend into one another.
quote:
It's easily measured via rulers, tapes, trigonometry (if you're really desparate), or an extremely sensitive barometer.
All these things are socially constructed measures and measurements.
quote:
What units and devices would you use to measure "blackness"?
Where does 'yellow' become 'green' or 'red' become 'brown'? Does the visible spectrum exist?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 234 by crashfrog, posted 03-05-2004 10:19 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 238 by crashfrog, posted 03-05-2004 10:28 PM Gaius Caligula has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 237 of 274 (90702)
03-05-2004 10:24 PM
Reply to: Message 235 by Gaius Caligula
03-05-2004 10:20 PM


What objective 'cultural' trait do all members of a given culture share that excludes all others?
I don't understand where you're going with this question.
I am not convinced that 'time' or 'temperature' exist.
"Cold" may be a subjective term but "zero degrees Celcius" is not. Clearly temperature exists. "One second" is an objective measurement (within the limits of relativity.) Clearly time exists.
Explain to me how you would measure "blackness" or "asianness" and I'll grant you that race exists.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by Gaius Caligula, posted 03-05-2004 10:20 PM Gaius Caligula has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 239 by Gaius Caligula, posted 03-05-2004 10:30 PM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 238 of 274 (90703)
03-05-2004 10:28 PM
Reply to: Message 236 by Gaius Caligula
03-05-2004 10:23 PM


'Inches' and 'centimeters' do not exist naturally.
Sure they do. For instance a centimeter is a certain fraction of the distance light travels in one second.
Anywhere in the universe I measure, a centimeter is the same length (within the limits of relativity.)
Where does 'yellow' become 'green' or 'red' become 'brown'? Does the visible spectrum exist?
Since it's easily and objectively measured in angstroms or cycles per second, itmust be. Anybody who measures a certain wavelength of light will get the same measurement.
On the other hand, nobody can even agree on how many races there are. Is Tiger Woods black? I say he's asian. What's the objective basis for race?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 236 by Gaius Caligula, posted 03-05-2004 10:23 PM Gaius Caligula has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 240 by Gaius Caligula, posted 03-05-2004 10:35 PM crashfrog has replied

  
Gaius Caligula
Inactive Member


Message 239 of 274 (90704)
03-05-2004 10:30 PM
Reply to: Message 237 by crashfrog
03-05-2004 10:24 PM


quote:
I don't understand where you're going with this question.
I would like you to tell me what objective 'cultural' traits that all Westerners share and all non-Westerners do not share. I am not convinced the 'West' exists. Does 'culture' even exist after all?
quote:
"Cold" may be a subjective term but "zero degrees Celcius" is not
There is no precise point where 'hot' becomes 'cold'. 'Hot' and 'cold' do not exist.
quote:
Clearly temperature exists.
I am not convinced. Temperature is a category that exists along a continuum. Different degrees of temperature blend into one another. Of course, by your bankrupt epistemology (and epistemology is what we are discussing here), categories that fall across continuums must have no objective validity. Where does the Indian Ocean become the Atlantic Ocean? Where does 'blue' become 'green'?
quote:
"One second" is an objective measurement (within the limits of relativity.) Clearly time exists.
There is no precise point where the past becomes the present and the present becomes the future. All measurements of time are simply human constructs that create artificial divisions along continuous categories.
quote:
Explain to me how you would measure "blackness" or "asianness" and I'll grant you that race exists.
We are not discussing the existence of race here. We are discussing epistemology and the nature of categories.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by crashfrog, posted 03-05-2004 10:24 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 241 by crashfrog, posted 03-05-2004 10:39 PM Gaius Caligula has replied

  
Gaius Caligula
Inactive Member


Message 240 of 274 (90705)
03-05-2004 10:35 PM
Reply to: Message 238 by crashfrog
03-05-2004 10:28 PM


quote:
Sure they do.
No concept whatever exists naturally; outside of a human context.
quote:
For instance a centimeter is a certain fraction of the distance light travels in one second.
'Seconds' are artificial divisions on time, as are centimeters.
quote:
Anywhere in the universe I measure, a centimeter is the same length (within the limits of relativity.)
A 'centimeter' is a human construct to begin with.
Where does 'yellow' become 'green' or 'red' become 'brown'? Does the visible spectrum exist?
quote:
Since it's easily and objectively measured in angstroms or cycles per second, itmust be.
Once more, seconds are artificial divisions of time.
quote:
Anybody who measures a certain wavelength of light will get the same measurement.
Those 'measurements' were themselves constructed by humans.
quote:
On the other hand, nobody can even agree on how many races there are.
Restated: On the other hand, nobody can even agree on how many cultures there are. It must follow, therefore, that culture does not exist.
quote:
Is Tiger Woods black? I say he's asian. What's the objective basis for race?
What is the objective basis for conceptually dividing anything into a category?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by crashfrog, posted 03-05-2004 10:28 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 243 by crashfrog, posted 03-05-2004 10:42 PM Gaius Caligula has not replied

  
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