Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 63 (9072 total)
67 online now:
AZPaul3, dwise1, Minnemooseus (Adminnemooseus) (3 members, 64 visitors)
Newest Member: FossilDiscovery
Post Volume: Total: 893,178 Year: 4,290/6,534 Month: 504/900 Week: 28/182 Day: 16/12 Hour: 0/2


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Testing The Christian Apologists
GDR
Member (Idle past 187 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


(1)
Message 736 of 853 (872363)
02-26-2020 3:56 PM
Reply to: Message 734 by Phat
02-26-2020 3:21 PM


Re: Dr.Turek weighs in on Protestant and Catholic differences.
Hi Phat
In reading what Turek has to say he makes the whole point of being a Christian is that one gets saved. Again, he puts the whole point of Christianity as being focused on self benefit. That is 180 degrees from what we see in Jesus. The whole point of Christianity is to serve, not be served.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 734 by Phat, posted 02-26-2020 3:21 PM Phat has seen this message

Replies to this message:
 Message 737 by Tangle, posted 02-26-2020 4:26 PM GDR has replied
 Message 744 by Faith, posted 02-26-2020 8:14 PM GDR has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8487
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 737 of 853 (872365)
02-26-2020 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 736 by GDR
02-26-2020 3:56 PM


Re: Dr.Turek weighs in on Protestant and Catholic differences.
GDR writes:

The whole point of Christianity is to serve, not be served.

...in order to go to heaven.

Jesus's message is love thy neighbour and be saved.

Phat struggles with the 'serve', 'love thy neighbour' bit when it would actually harm him to do what his Lord expects of him - exactly like the rest of you. He just hasn't found a way to compromise yet. Anglicanism would be perfect.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 736 by GDR, posted 02-26-2020 3:56 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 738 by GDR, posted 02-26-2020 5:42 PM Tangle has replied

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 187 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


(1)
Message 738 of 853 (872366)
02-26-2020 5:42 PM
Reply to: Message 737 by Tangle
02-26-2020 4:26 PM


Re: Dr.Turek weighs in on Protestant and Catholic differences.
GDR writes:

The whole point of Christianity is to serve, not be served.

Tangle writes:

...in order to go to heaven.

No, the point of serving is because that is what your heart calls you to. Look at the sheep and the goats in Matthew 25. The sheep did what they did without any thought of self benefit. They essentially wonder what on earth Jesus is talking about when He tells them that what they did was for Him.

Look at the parable of the good Samaritan. He is just loving his neighbour and Jesus makes the point about the good guy being a Samaritan and not someone from His own culture.

Tangle writes:

Jesus's message is love thy neighbour and be saved.

Yes and no. Jesus' message is that we are called to become members of the "Kingdom of God". (or "Kingdom of Heaven" as Matthew puts it. The point of being part of that Kingdom is the call upon humanity to live out God's command to love within this world. If we have hearts that embrace that command to love it would have an effect of what happens in the next life but it isn't the point. However Paul says this in Ephesians 1:
quote:
10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.

Paul does say that it is about the unity of ALL things. We have the model of Jesus coming into this world to rule by serving, so maybe as Christians in the next life we'll be there serving and who will there be to serve - the atheists of course.

Tangle writes:

Phat struggles with the 'serve', 'love thy neighbour' bit when it would actually harm him to do what his Lord expects of him - exactly like the rest of you. He just hasn't found a way to compromise yet. Anglicanism would be perfect.

The problem is that Christianity has over the centuries picked up all sorts of baggage, and part of that is the whole emphasis of personal salvation, as well as personal benefits in this life, being the primary point of it all is part of that baggage. The so called prosperity gospel is the extreme example of that.

This is particularly true in the part of the world where Phat lives.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 737 by Tangle, posted 02-26-2020 4:26 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 739 by Tangle, posted 02-26-2020 6:06 PM GDR has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8487
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 739 of 853 (872368)
02-26-2020 6:06 PM
Reply to: Message 738 by GDR
02-26-2020 5:42 PM


Re: Dr.Turek weighs in on Protestant and Catholic differences.
GDR, I can barely read this kind of stuff because it's just such preachy blather oriented around a personal belief. A different Christian would have a different personal slant and quote a different set of parables and verses and/or interpret them differently.

The bottom line is that Christians are told that the way to everlasting life is to love your neighbour and follow Jesus. These three things are inseparable. The detail of how to do that vary, works, worship, sect, ritual, tradition etc etc but that's the basic message - you get to heaven if you believe in Jesus and behave decently to others.

Currently Phat is struggling with one of those inconvenient details - having to give everything away in order to qualify and he's also noticed that his belief is not actually making his life any better.

Christians let those particular details pass by without affecting them, just like the don't let the fact that the god that 'loves' them doesn't mind killing 2% of the global population by inflicting a virus on all them which they have no immunity from.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 738 by GDR, posted 02-26-2020 5:42 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 740 by GDR, posted 02-26-2020 6:28 PM Tangle has replied

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 187 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 740 of 853 (872371)
02-26-2020 6:28 PM
Reply to: Message 739 by Tangle
02-26-2020 6:06 PM


Re: Dr.Turek weighs in on Protestant and Catholic differences.
Tangle writes:

GDR, I can barely read this kind of stuff because it's just such preachy blather oriented around a personal belief. A different Christian would have a different personal slant and quote a different set of parables and verses and/or interpret them differently.
The bottom line is that Christians are told that the way to everlasting life is to love your neighbour and follow Jesus. These three things are inseparable. The detail of how to do that vary, works, worship, sect, ritual, tradition etc etc but that's the basic message - you get to heaven if you believe in Jesus and behave decently to others.

No that is not the basic message. I don't agree with all that came out of the reformation but I do agree that salvation doesn't come from works. Paul writes this in Romans 2:

quote:
15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.
It is about responding to that still small voice of God or our conscience that we all have if you like.

You are simply spouting off your views of what you understand about Christianity. Why do you assume that you understand it more than I do, or more than anyone else? Christian scholars like N T Wright, John Polkinghorne and numerous others would disagree with you. That doesn't make them or me right, but it does show that there is strong support for my beliefs of what is basic to Christianity.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 739 by Tangle, posted 02-26-2020 6:06 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 741 by Tangle, posted 02-26-2020 6:54 PM GDR has replied
 Message 742 by Tangle, posted 02-26-2020 6:59 PM GDR has taken no action

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8487
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 741 of 853 (872375)
02-26-2020 6:54 PM
Reply to: Message 740 by GDR
02-26-2020 6:28 PM


Re: Dr.Turek weighs in on Protestant and Catholic differences.
double post

Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 740 by GDR, posted 02-26-2020 6:28 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 743 by GDR, posted 02-26-2020 7:17 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8487
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 742 of 853 (872376)
02-26-2020 6:59 PM
Reply to: Message 740 by GDR
02-26-2020 6:28 PM


Re: Dr.Turek weighs in on Protestant and Catholic differences.
GDR writes:

I don't agree with all that came out of the reformation

Of course you don't, you have your own view. That's my point. But it doesn't matter what *you* believe there definitely *is* a basic message, 'follow me, love thy neighbour and enter heaven.'

It is about responding to that still small voice of God or our conscience that we all have if you like

Again, that's only what *you* believe. Following your conscience is the ultimate get out of jail card, the Catholics use it all the time - 'contraception is a mortal sin' unless your conscience tells you otherwise. 'Of course you don't have to give away all your money if your conscience tells you otherwise'. Never mind what the book actually says.

Why do you assume that you understand it more than I do, or more than anyone else?

Because I can see that there are tens of thousands of different Christian sects with hundreds, if not millions of different interpretations, am not personally committed to any of them and can see the bigger picture.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 740 by GDR, posted 02-26-2020 6:28 PM GDR has taken no action

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 187 days)
Posts: 5410
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


(1)
Message 743 of 853 (872379)
02-26-2020 7:17 PM
Reply to: Message 741 by Tangle
02-26-2020 6:54 PM


Re: Dr.Turek weighs in on Protestant and Catholic differences.
Tangle writes:

Of course you don't, you have your own view. That's my point. But it doesn't matter what *you* believe there definitely *is* a basic message, 'follow me, love thy neighbour and enter heaven.'

We all have our own view and you as an atheist have your own view of what Christians should believe. As a Christian I am saying that it is my view that your view is wrong.

Tangle writes:

Again, that's only what *you* believe. Following your conscience is the ultimate get out of jail card, the Catholics use it all the time - 'contraception is a mortal sin' unless your conscience tells you otherwise. 'Of course you don't have to give away all your money if your conscience tells you otherwise'. Never mind what the book actually says.

This is from Matthew:
quote:
12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.
Love of others sums up ALL the law and the prophets. All major religions have that in their teaching in one way or another. Jesus is saying that is is basic and fundamental. Basic Christianity is simply that. Love is not something that we can manufacture. It is partly intuitive and partly learned. We all respond positively sometimes and negatively sometimes to our conscience.

Paul tells us not to judge that we be not judged. I simply trust in perfect justice in the end and God will look after what comes next for all of us. You keep on insisting that the point of Christianity is to avoid hell with your get out of jail free quip. That again is simply your view of Christianity, a view that I personally reject.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 741 by Tangle, posted 02-26-2020 6:54 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 764 by Tangle, posted 02-27-2020 3:08 AM GDR has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 679 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 744 of 853 (872384)
02-26-2020 8:14 PM
Reply to: Message 736 by GDR
02-26-2020 3:56 PM


Re: Dr.Turek weighs in on Protestant and Catholic differences.
In reading what Turek has to say he makes the whole point of being a Christian is that one gets saved. Again, he puts the whole point of Christianity as being focused on self benefit. That is 180 degrees from what we see in Jesus. The whole point of Christianity is to serve, not be served.

GDR, do you really not get that most "serving" that is done is done for personal benefit? To feel good about yourself, to feel superior to others, to get credit of one sort or another, some kind of reward from God or whatnot? That's the most common sin there is, and it's a form of spiritual sin. When Paul said it's not about works "lest any man should boast," that's what he meant. Boasting comes with doing good works, not with salvation.

Have you studied the Beatitudes? "Blessed are the poor in spirit" is the first one. It's not about literal poverty, being poor in material goods, it's about being poor IN SPIRIT, which means not trusting in ourselves, not thinking we have anything good to offer God or anyone else. It's foundational to the whole Christian life. Basically what it means is that we have to be free of self-righteousness, of thinking we can accomplish anything at all in our own strength. We have to know that we can do absolutely nothing on our own, no good works for sure, nothing, that we are incapable of anything good, it all has to come from God. That's basic humility, pointing to your good heart or your good deeds is pride.

The Reformation doctrine of "Total depravity" is another way of saying that. We CAN'T do good works, GDR, it isn't in us, we're fallen. Salvation is regeneration of the spirit we lost at the Fall by which we can eventually reclaim some of the ability to do good that we lost but the more we reclaim the more we will learn that it all comes from God anyway and not from us. But you'd have us somehow think we can have a good heart without that. That's self-deception to a monumental degree. Even after being saved we are subject to our wretched fallen nature, and one of our biggest sins is thinking we're good or are capable of doing good.

The saddest people are the ones who think they'll go to heaven because they've been good people. Well I don't doubt that they have been good by our woefully inadequate standards, but it isn't goodness that gets us saved, that is what Paul meant, we are sinners deserving only of eternal damnation, saved only by God's grace and by nothing in ourselves. We need Jesus' goodness in our place to save us, or to have any ability to do any kind of good at all.

AbE: I understand that you sorta kinda give credit to God for our ability to do good, but as long as your focus is on doing good you are building up pride and self-righteousness or "boasting."

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 736 by GDR, posted 02-26-2020 3:56 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 745 by jar, posted 02-26-2020 8:24 PM Faith has replied
 Message 751 by GDR, posted 02-26-2020 9:24 PM Faith has replied
 Message 760 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-26-2020 10:58 PM Faith has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33893
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 745 of 853 (872387)
02-26-2020 8:24 PM
Reply to: Message 744 by Faith
02-26-2020 8:14 PM


Re: Dr.Turek weighs in on Protestant and Catholic differences.
Faith writes:

We CAN'T do good works, GDR, it isn't in us, we're fallen.

Yes, it seems that you can't do good works.

Thankfully the rest of us can and do!


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 744 by Faith, posted 02-26-2020 8:14 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 747 by Faith, posted 02-26-2020 8:41 PM jar has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 679 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 746 of 853 (872389)
02-26-2020 8:37 PM
Reply to: Message 735 by ringo
02-26-2020 3:40 PM


Re: Dr.Turek weighs in on Protestant and Catholic differences.
The real question is what are you being "saved" from?

The real answer is: eternal damnation.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 735 by ringo, posted 02-26-2020 3:40 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 768 by ringo, posted 02-27-2020 10:35 AM Faith has taken no action

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 679 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 747 of 853 (872390)
02-26-2020 8:41 PM
Reply to: Message 745 by jar
02-26-2020 8:24 PM


Re: Dr.Turek weighs in on Protestant and Catholic differences.
Yes, it seems that you can't do good works.
Thankfully the rest of us can and do!

Do you know the scripture that says "All our righteousnesses (good deeds) are as filthy rags?"


This message is a reply to:
 Message 745 by jar, posted 02-26-2020 8:24 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 748 by jar, posted 02-26-2020 8:58 PM Faith has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33893
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 748 of 853 (872392)
02-26-2020 8:58 PM
Reply to: Message 747 by Faith
02-26-2020 8:41 PM


Re: Dr.Turek weighs in on Protestant and Catholic differences.
Faith writes:

Do you know the scripture that says "All our righteousnesses (good deeds) are as filthy rags?"

Yup. Yet another example of the conmen pulling pieces parts out of context to market their scam and rewriting the Bible to support their fantasies.

Yet Jesus says that we are charged to do good deeds, not for righteousness but because they are the right thing to do.

Paul says we are to fight the GOD fight; run the race.

You and the other folk that market the snake oil called Salvation and pervert the teachings of Jesus.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 747 by Faith, posted 02-26-2020 8:41 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 749 by Faith, posted 02-26-2020 9:19 PM jar has replied
 Message 750 by Faith, posted 02-26-2020 9:21 PM jar has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 679 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 749 of 853 (872393)
02-26-2020 9:19 PM
Reply to: Message 748 by jar
02-26-2020 8:58 PM


Re: Dr.Turek weighs in on Protestant and Catholic differences.
How about "There is no one righteous, no not one."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 748 by jar, posted 02-26-2020 8:58 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 753 by jar, posted 02-26-2020 9:43 PM Faith has taken no action

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 679 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 750 of 853 (872394)
02-26-2020 9:21 PM
Reply to: Message 748 by jar
02-26-2020 8:58 PM


Re: Dr.Turek weighs in on Protestant and Catholic differences.
Yes we are to do good deeds, but fallen people can't do good deeds, or to be precise, good deeds that God regards as good deeds, you have to be regenerated and if your focus is all on good deeds as is the case with some here there is no sign of regeneration involved, especially with those who denigrate the whole idea of salvation.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 748 by jar, posted 02-26-2020 8:58 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 754 by jar, posted 02-26-2020 9:46 PM Faith has taken no action

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.1
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2022