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Author Topic:   Testing The Christian Apologists
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 728 of 1086 (872342)
02-26-2020 3:47 AM
Reply to: Message 727 by Tangle
02-26-2020 2:35 AM


Re: Convincing who at this point?
You are right for once. And what's worse is the realization that God's magic isn't working on my behalf.
If ringo is right in that I am expected to follow God and deny myself fully...on my own power...and without God's help....I'm screwed.

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 727 by Tangle, posted 02-26-2020 2:35 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 729 by Tangle, posted 02-26-2020 7:42 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 731 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-26-2020 9:53 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 733 by GDR, posted 02-26-2020 3:19 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 734 of 1086 (872361)
02-26-2020 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 732 by ringo
02-26-2020 2:10 PM


Dr.Turek weighs in on Protestant and Catholic differences.
OPEN TRANSCRIPT:
QUESTIONER: When you are at Ohio State you had someone ask you a question I think they asked you were you Catholic and you explained that you know you're Protestant and then you made a comment about how we have more likenesses than we have differences and I would totally agree but then you said something along the lines talking about I think he used the word salvation but talking about the doctrine of justification and how you wouldn't part on that issue and you called it a secondary issue and the only reason I bring it up is I pushed back on that thinking ... it's a number-one issue
but you know my in-laws are Catholic and I love them deeply. So where do you draw the line with ...how you separate that out and and and how you don't?
TUREK: I went to Catholic HighSchool.
I went through the whole thing but at the end of it I didn't even know who Jesus was I didn't have a good maybe that was my fault you know I'm going high school you know what do I know it was until I was in the Navy
and I met the son of a Methodist minister and he took me to a Baptist Church and I started to learn doctrine it seemed better from a 40-minute sermon than a seven-minute Halawa homily right and then I had so many questions for him he said you know you just need to get Josh McDowell books evidence demands a verdict and more than a carpenter so - I became a Christian through apologetics now when it comes to the situation with Roman Catholics and Protestants is
I'm a Protestant a lot of times I get questions from Protestants that say to me - you think Catholics can be saved? and I usually say I even think some Baptists can be saved okay because it's not where you go to church that determines whether or not your sins are forgiven it's whether you've accepted the free gift of salvation now technically there's a dispute obviously between the Protestants and the Catholics over the difference between what's known as justification and sanctification.
Protestants believe the justification is a one-time only event where you accept Christ and your sin forgiving after that sanctification takes place whereby you're progressively hopefully becoming more like Jesus through the Holy Spirit.
Catholics tend to put those two things together they say the justification and sanctification go together and there's no distinction there (now) they would admit that was the thief on the cross saved yeah did he do any good works no but they're saying that if you're going to be a true Christian you're going to do good works and I agree with that I just don't think the good works are salvific.
I think that you're saved by faith alone but your faith is not alone that you're going to do good when Paul says this and the most famous probably verse on this in the new testament in Ephesians chapter 2 . he says that you're saved by faith, not of works so that no man should boast It's grace through faith and then the very next verse talks about but you're created in Christ to do good works so it's a dispute over how we unpack salvation.
Are we just talking about justification are we talking about justification and sanctification together now can I have fellowship with a Catholic that believes that they're saved by grace, of course, I can if they're gonna say I've got to do good works in order to be saved I'm gonna have an argument with them( a friendly argument) but I'm gonna say look the Catholics agree that you can't be saved without Jesus... they agree with that right?
That's the most important thing you've got to have Jesus in order to be saved but I'm gonna have a conversation and say look the Scriptures seem to indicate that no you don't need works to be saved but if you are saved you will do good works
Edited by Phat, : spacing

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 732 by ringo, posted 02-26-2020 2:10 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 735 by ringo, posted 02-26-2020 3:40 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 736 by GDR, posted 02-26-2020 3:56 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 767 of 1086 (872426)
02-27-2020 10:09 AM
Reply to: Message 766 by Hyroglyphx
02-27-2020 9:47 AM


Answering A Humanist Charge And earning Nothing.
She likely will say that the Fall is true Biblical Christianity. I looked it up and verified that it (The fall) is widely claimed as Orthodox in Western Christianity. jar claims it is a huckster marketing tool, as does ringo, and both stick to an unorthodox yet literal reading of genesis 3.
If the concept was in fact a so-called marketing tool, that fact alone would indict the lions share of Western Christian thought...not simply a handful of PT Barnumesque apologists. I reject the concept not because it can be shown to be a literal interpretation but because the implications of such an interpretation make God out to be a myriad of characters in the book and not a cohesive eternal concept and belief.
Should that be the case, it shoots enough holes in the beliefs I was taught to deflate them. You claim that we are called to serve rather than be served, but Faith argues that we humans are incapable of such selfless and obsessive devotion without help from The Holy Spirit.
jar argues that *we* most certainly can and do perform good works based on the charge rather than the impartation by the Holy Spirit. To me, that differs little from altruism and good works in and of themselves and divorced from religion.
Tangle readily agrees.
That sort of "Christianity" doesn't set well with me. It makes Christianity so all-inclusive that it becomes simply a club that anyone can join through answering the charge, which is thus universal. It imparts no special favor or blessing to anyone who calls themselves Christian. It promises nothing after death in this life. It may well earn its members nothing more than merit badges of their own making. Yet in its defense, it can help many people in *this life.*
jar claims that none of us can know IF God blesses us further after this life is over. I would disagree only because that Hope is what my Belief mainly is. Had I no hope beyond evidence and secular sociological thinking, I may as well throw God away as well as Jesus. Either that or relegate them as simple characters in literature akin to any other folk hero. To which i say (as tangle would) Crap.

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 766 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-27-2020 9:47 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 769 by ringo, posted 02-27-2020 10:45 AM Phat has replied
 Message 776 by jar, posted 02-27-2020 10:59 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 797 by Hyroglyphx, posted 02-27-2020 6:10 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 770 of 1086 (872429)
02-27-2020 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 768 by ringo
02-27-2020 10:35 AM


Re: Dr.Turek weighs in on Protestant and Catholic differences.
Who created eternal damnation?
We did and we do. I know you think its no choice, but if you reject eternal salvation, you become eternally damned as a default since eternal damnation had to be created in order to allow for Satan which in essence allowed us to choose (and be responsible for our choice). You might argue that we should have been given the option to opt-out, but what you fail to understand is that humans cant and won't survive alone in this vast universe. You need wise guides to navigate the terrain.

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 768 by ringo, posted 02-27-2020 10:35 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 772 by ringo, posted 02-27-2020 10:52 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 771 of 1086 (872430)
02-27-2020 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 769 by ringo
02-27-2020 10:45 AM


Re: Answering A Humanist Charge And earning Nothing.
ringo writes:
And you would prefer to keep people out
. No, I would insist that they make a choice before being allowed in. You cant join a club on your own terms.

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 769 by ringo, posted 02-27-2020 10:45 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 774 by ringo, posted 02-27-2020 10:54 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 773 of 1086 (872432)
02-27-2020 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 772 by ringo
02-27-2020 10:52 AM


Re: Dr.Turek weighs in on Protestant and Catholic differences.
How so? I don't follow your logic.

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 772 by ringo, posted 02-27-2020 10:52 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 775 by ringo, posted 02-27-2020 10:56 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 777 of 1086 (872438)
02-27-2020 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 774 by ringo
02-27-2020 10:54 AM


Re: Answering A Humanist Charge And earning Nothing.
Heaven is not a democracy. Otherwise, we would be forced to let satan hang out there also.
IIRC, there was a war and he got evicted. Rightly so.

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 774 by ringo, posted 02-27-2020 10:54 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 779 by jar, posted 02-27-2020 11:09 AM Phat has replied
 Message 781 by ringo, posted 02-27-2020 11:13 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 778 of 1086 (872439)
02-27-2020 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 775 by ringo
02-27-2020 10:56 AM


Re: Dr.Turek weighs in on Protestant and Catholic differences.
ringo writes:
If your god didn't create eternal damnation, he didn't create everything in the universe. What could be clearer than that?
If by that you mean that He doesn't create your decisions, then yes, I agree. He created the possibility of evil. Humans still choose whether or not to actualize it. Some argue that we (or rather our earliest family) chose to actualize it, tainting the whole family lineage.
Others argue that we become the decisions we make on a daily basis. Thus we actualize our choice. What we cannot do is to opt-out and then claim that our choice should be comparably good along with the One we rejected.

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 775 by ringo, posted 02-27-2020 10:56 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 783 by ringo, posted 02-27-2020 11:17 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 780 of 1086 (872441)
02-27-2020 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 779 by jar
02-27-2020 11:09 AM


Re: Answering A Humanist Charge And earning Nothing.
Could it be because they threw God away and claimed their own works as the necessary credentials?

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 779 by jar, posted 02-27-2020 11:09 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 782 by jar, posted 02-27-2020 11:15 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 810 of 1086 (872499)
02-28-2020 8:12 AM
Reply to: Message 809 by Tangle
02-28-2020 3:39 AM


No God Needed?
Tangle, responding to GDR writes:
We create the rules we live by and always have. There is no evidence that anything else has made us the way we are.
I would argue that experience has shaped my beliefs and shapes the beliefs of many people. Evidence is lacking. To me, this does not mean that there is no God.
For you, the absence of evidence led to your conclusion of absence regarding God. I see that and so does GDR and Faith. I've noticed that Faith has a bit of an evangelistic bent lately as she is only basically saying to you that she knows not the day or the hour *But that God does* so keep an open mind. You, on the other hand, are willing to offer we believers a guarantee that nothing supernatural is ever going to happen and that you have faith in the obvious.
tangle writes:
I just find the need for a god unnecessary, especially through being more than enough.
Hmmm.
Google Dictionary writes:
Superfluous: surplus redundant unneeded not required excess extra spare to spare remaining unused left over useless unproductive undue in excess surplus to requirements expendable disposable dispensable unwanted waste unnecessary needless unneeded inessential pointless redundant uncalled for unwarranted unjustified gratuitous.
More than enough? It seems that God Himself (Herself, Itself) would be a welcome addition and it is just the excess religious baggage connected with Him that you consider excessive. Or am I again wrong about how you think?
For me personally, a disinterested aloof god would be superfluous. An interactive supportive One would not.

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 809 by Tangle, posted 02-28-2020 3:39 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 811 by jar, posted 02-28-2020 8:18 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 812 by Tangle, posted 02-28-2020 8:48 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 830 of 1086 (872640)
03-01-2020 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 829 by Tangle
02-29-2020 9:45 PM


Re: The point of Christianity
Given that all you need is love, the argument is not that god is redundant, it's that religion is redundant - including Christianity.
Obviously this is true in your mind because in your mind God does not even exist. I would argue, however, that religion and God are inseparable. Perhaps if God did exist (in your mind) either you or He would have to go, thus avoiding redundancy.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 829 by Tangle, posted 02-29-2020 9:45 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 831 by Tangle, posted 03-01-2020 2:34 PM Phat has replied
 Message 834 by ringo, posted 03-02-2020 10:38 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 832 of 1086 (872664)
03-01-2020 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 831 by Tangle
03-01-2020 2:34 PM


Re: The point of Christianity
It's not about me!!! It's about what your book says.
And it's about how people (you, me, GDR) respond to what the book says. Otherwise, why bring it up? You cant walk into Faith & Belief and attempt to reduce belief to a verifiable science-based philosophy. If you had wanted this in a Science Forum I never would have commented at all. You have to deal with people's beliefs if you expect to form theories about morals, behaviors, and beliefs.

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 831 by Tangle, posted 03-01-2020 2:34 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 833 by Tangle, posted 03-01-2020 8:21 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 835 by ringo, posted 03-02-2020 10:41 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 836 of 1086 (872715)
03-02-2020 9:35 PM
Reply to: Message 834 by ringo
03-02-2020 10:38 AM


Re: The point of Christianity
Idolatry is making a religion of something that is not God. Idolatry does not need God.
Well if so, idolatry needs the "something" that you gave it..whatever word you chose to label 'it' as.

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 834 by ringo, posted 03-02-2020 10:38 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 837 by ringo, posted 03-03-2020 10:52 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 838 of 1086 (872746)
03-03-2020 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 837 by ringo
03-03-2020 10:52 AM


Re: The point of Christianity
ringo writes:
But that something can be entirely imaginary. You can build a religion based entirely on imagination - and most people do. Religion requires no god and God - if there was one - requires no religion.
OK, I'll go with that for now. I believe that there is no need for me to ask "which God" I am relating to as I believe that God wants me to seek Him and only the God with the power to draw me closer is, in fact, the real one. I do not worry about satan getting in the way and impersonating God, for I do not believe that Satan even has such power or capability. And I suppose that I could agree that my beliefs don't even require a God as they are products of my desires and imagination.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 837 by ringo, posted 03-03-2020 10:52 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 839 by ringo, posted 03-03-2020 11:45 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 840 of 1086 (872753)
03-03-2020 2:13 PM
Reply to: Message 839 by ringo
03-03-2020 11:45 AM


Re: The point of Christianity
ringo writes:
I think "Satan" definitely can - and does - impersonate "God". Your "experiences" of God are just as likely to be experiences of Satan.
But of course, Satan is not an outside entity - and neither is God.
To sum up your point, you really mean that the easiest person to fool is ourselves. This is why I listen to varied points of view regarding God, religion, and other people's POV concerning the existence of and characteristics of God.
I've gone far deeper than many if not most Christians whom I know would have dared to go. I listened to Dan Barker and Matt Dillahunty. I listened to several podcasts describing some honestly introspective deconversion experiences.
And of course, I endlessly discuss these things with you and jar even though I do not agree with your world view ideas that humans create God. I believe that God is also external to us as is Satan.

The only way I know to drive out evil from the country is by the constructive method of filling it with good.Calvin Coolidge
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.-RC Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

- You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.~Andre Gide

This message is a reply to:
 Message 839 by ringo, posted 03-03-2020 11:45 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 841 by ringo, posted 03-04-2020 2:20 PM Phat has replied

  
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